Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Exciting times as we have Clarie Lee, the last of the three co founders of the ABA to feature on the podcast. It's, it's like Pokemon, gotta catch em all. And also Chloe informed me this was her first ever zoom call and Bill helped her get this set up. And we do hear him on occasion chime in in the background over the course of the chat, which plays out over the next couple of episodes and we'll we really delve into the importance of understanding animal behavior, the challenges faced in the early days of the sanctuary, like introducing more structure and the initial resistance to that, to Clarie's animal advocacy since childhood and the desire to make a difference. So without further ado, there is a place in the remote northwards of Minnesota, North America. It's located near the town of orr, population approximately 300. Outside this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side. It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vince Tutti Wildlife Sanctuary run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short. The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife through education, observation and experience.
I'm your host, Philip Stubley and welcome to the Bear Den. So I think first of all for the benefit of the listeners, I'd just get you to introduce yourself please and tell us who is, who is Clarie?
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Okay, well, Clarie Lee is part of a couple married to Billy and we both are fierce advocates for helping the public at large to understand the true motivations, the true behavior be behind what, what makes animals tick and what makes them behave the way they do and helping people to understand. But it started as a little girl. I mean I was very active in animal causes. I mean my father, because I'd wear all these crazy T shirts, I didn't think they were crazy. My father always asked can you just keep your mouth shut when you see, you know, somebody wearing a fur or something else? And because I would wear T shirts that, you know, very graph, not graphic. That's the wrong. But you get the message behind what I'm wearing. And my father used to always go, gosh, do you ever stop? You know and, and, and that's one thing, it's interesting. Bill told me before I got on. Now you know how you do, you get in that teaching mode and you kind of preach and, and so I'm trying to do less of that with you in the audience so perhaps they can understand what moves both Bill And I, and people like you to want to make a difference. So as a very young child, I think one of my earliest recollections was when I was, oh, I think six or seven, no, seven. I was in second grade. I walked home from school and I saw this man trying to run over a turtle. I was horrified and I ran home and got my father and said, please help me, you know, because I tried to stop the man, but he just laughed at all and so grabbed my father, said, please, please help me. They're trying to kill this turtle. And I guess that was the first time that it really clicked that you've got to try and take those chances, you know, get on the edge or you're taking up too much space. Make a difference another time. I remember when I was even younger, sick or something, we grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and I used to play with my little gang on the railroad tracks. And there was a tunnel there that we kind of adventure into and there were pigeons all over roosting in there. And I remember as we were going into the tunnel, these boys shooting the pigeons with BB guns and they drop and I just got so angry and so. But I was so moved and I was just a little girl with pigtails. And I went up to him, I told him to stop, you know, not realizing that I'm just a little kid and these are, you know, 17, 18 year olds doing that. But it that, that zeal to stop any cruelty was in me, regardless of how old, how young, how vulnerable. And I told them and they just laughed at me. And I said, well, my father owns this railroad and I'm going to tell him what you're doing because I remember your face. And I'm going to tell him and he will come with the police and we'll get you. And I thought that would make a big difference. Well, they turned the BB gun on me. Oh no. Run out with my little floppy pigtails and run for my life. So again, you know, I always had that in me. And that's who I am. I live for compassion. And I guess you could say I preach compassion whether you're on two legs, four legs, slithering, and for every. Every being.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Well, that's lovely. I was going to ask about sort of have you always been fascinated with nature? But I'm guessing yes.
Oh, yeah. And so how did you and Bill actually meet, just out of interest?
[00:06:01] Speaker B: We met in college.
I was working at the front desk to make money for my tuition and Bill came to the front desk of a dormitory. It was A dormitory. And he came to rent some. That's. You go to the desk to rent equipment, recreational equipment or make calls, all this kind of service oriented place. And he, I had my back to him and he, I just hear this voice, Wow, I haven't seen you in a while. And I turn around and he looks and I look. I, I don't know who you are. And he said, I'm so sorry it was somebody else. But we started talking. We both shared our love for animals and it just went from there. And we evolved into this animal advocacy that was driven by our belief in justice and educating and fighting. And I don't mean that as a violent term, but fighting for wildlife and trying to inspire people to put themselves in those bodies of the, of the creatures and what they have to deal with every single day and not to take these creatures for granted. And both of us then began our united front to help on that issue, which is so important. There's so much misunderstanding out there and myths that are harmful not only for humans and how they relate to wildlife, but also it causes fear, which is very paralyzing. And it's that fear that drives people to want to destroy what they're afraid of. And it's, it's sad. And that's why it's important to advocate on understanding behavior what drives an animal to do what they do. And that even in includes domestic animals.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: You have. How many cats and dogs have you got at the minute?
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Well, see that, that's another problem. I see an animal and I want.
All of them are rescues. We have five cats and two dogs. Our most recent rescue was a senior dog that, you know, these senior dogs in rescue places are the last to get adopted, if they ever get adopted. So we adopted one that's about 14 years old. She's blind, she's basically deaf. She has severe arthritis and she has kidney failure.
So we knew nobody would take her and we took her and we figure what time she has left that we could give her love, both emotionally but also holding her. And she was a stray. So her socialization skills are somewhat, are muted by all the challenging situations she was thrust into as a stray. So.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Well, I'm, sure she'll, I'm sure in time she'll understand she's in a safe place with you two.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's starting. And it's only, we've only had her a couple weeks, so. Oh, and she's incontinent, so there's challenges, but you got to look past, don't.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: Hold it too close then.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: Well, it's amazing how they give back to me, you know, cleaning up after her. And that's nothing. It's the feeling that you're making a difference for this particular animal, you know. And we inherited three cats. One for my sister who recently passed away. He's a Siamese, very grouchy old man. And then, then two feral cats that my father was feeding. And then when he died this past year, I was worried, what's going to happen to those feral cats? I mean, somebody's going to shoot them or something. Because that's. Unfortunately, here in Tennessee, people don't like cats. And so Bill and I trapped them and brought them home. And so now they're adjusting to our little menagerie and they're really doing well.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Oh, that's great.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: And again, that shows you how much love just makes a difference if they're respected and given love. Yeah, I think you know what you're doing.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah, saying that then. So what was your attitude towards the bear, towards bears generally before visiting the Northwoods, Was it broadly similar or was it markedly different? Different afterwards?
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Well, it was markedly uninformed. You know, I read a lot and you see the movies where they dub in growling and bears don't growl. When I first went to the sanctuary or and it wasn't a sanctuary then, and met Vince and saw him sitting in amongst many, many bears. I was taken with that because I had my own bias and my own fear and I realized, my gosh, they're not what is written about them. This. They're different. They're. And I talking to Vince was very inspirational because he used. He was a bear hunter. He killed many bears, he said, until he thought he killed the last one. But then he started realizing that killing them wasn't stopping them from looking for food at his place because he had a lumber camp there and they just threw out, you know, their garbage and any food scraps, never thinking or never relating to how that translates or into animals approaching looking for food. And so he started thinking, feeding them. He said, bears aren't mean, they're hungry. And from then I started taking time and really learning. And Vince at that time came to us and said, I'm getting very old. He. He made his way around the. The. What I call the magic circle, this one acre opening that the bears came to. What's going to happen to the bears? Want something happens to me. And that's written a lot. And Bill and I living in at that time, North Carolina, and this was up in Minnesota. We didn't know. But the desperation in those steel blue eyes of his made us realize if we don't do something, you know, this magical place is going to be threatened by human fear that think these bears will then go to their homes looking for human flesh as food. And so we stepped in and what fear that I was taught to have of big animals was completely transformed into a deep respect and compassion. And I saw how that sanctuary, that particular situation, as negative as some people may find it, but it had such an intense, transformational quality to Bill and I that I thought this is one way that we could make a difference, because it transformed me totally. And I was able to realize how fear is just destructive and not productive. And I was bitten by the magic and inspiration of this old logger who lived amongst the bears. And our lives were different from then on.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Imagine. I mean, how did you actually first hear about Vince and the bears? Am I right that initially you were kind of a bit reluctant to go?
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Right. Our very dear friend, who was a biologist and we've known for 30 years, had a cabin close to where Vince lived. And he, even as a. At a young age, used to visit this place, this magical place, because he heard about the bear man. Everybody heard. So his family used to visit there when they were visiting the cabin. And knowing that Bill was a photographer at that point, and we traveled everywhere photographing wildlife, he said, you got to see this place before this man dies. It's incredible. And we didn't want to go because we heard, you know, it was kind of a chaotic place where people were feeding bears, they were drinking around the bears. It didn't sound like it was a respect for full place for the animals, but. And. And also we didn't want to join that effort of chaos and disrespect for the wildlife. But Vince's story moved us enough that we thought, okay, we'll just spend one day, check it out. And finally, quiet our wildlife biologist friend, Carl, because he kind of nagged us and we were taken. So one day turned into one week, and we ended up staying, oh, gosh, months, a month or so to help him. And we got just so impressed and so moved by what we were seeing and what we were learning.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: What were you seeing and learning we were seeing?
[00:16:27] Speaker B: First of all, what inspired us is this remarkable relationship between this old, crusty old logger and the bears that he once feared and shot, and how he came to understand why they behaved, why they were so destructive and why people interpreted them as so threatening, and how he transformed his whole belief by actually living amongst them and walking amongst them and he, how he interacted with the bears, that was very enlightening. And things I got to see that we never got to see in many years of photographing wild animals, getting to see cubs and mama bears and how they interact and how males competing for dominance, things that we even breeding, the foreplay and the actual breeding behaviors of bears and what they do, they're marking and leaving chemical markers everywhere to attract males or females will do. Just seeing that intimate side of the bears, it just really opened our eyes. And we said we need to share this story. And that's one thing that drives Bill with the photography is showing this different side. But that's like a one dimensional, this was a three dimensional, multi dimensional way of experiencing bears and watching bears. And from then on we realized he's getting older, we had to do something. And after questioning the locals, the people in the town of Orr and around, they thought he was just crazy and they didn't want to help because they thought it was a crazy negative situation. And while we also began think, I mean at the very beginning thought this was a negative situation, didn't even want to go visit, just spending the time there convinced us that we got to do something. And since the town in the local area didn't want anything to do with it, we have also went to a bear biologist that lived there, were very famous who didn't want to take it on either because of the liability. And you know, Bill and I didn't come from money or anything. We didn't, we lived very modestly and had modest jobs. We put all logic aside and said okay, then we're going to have to do something. And that's where we started. And we started trying to gather volunteers. And this wonderful group of volunteers that started with us gave of themselves, their time and their efforts because they were also bitten by this inspirational, magical place in our mission of helping to people understand. So we started from extremely modest means and, and just through the commitment and the feverish dedication of many volunteers, we all worked together and over the years was able, were able to develop this place of understanding bears and other wildlife that it succeeds even today. And it was finally time for the old guard now to retire and let this new, younger, energetic blood take over with their new ideas. And that's why I'm excited that there's new people, new energy with new ideas and innovations that can help the mission to go on and get even stronger, you know, and it wasn't easy because I was very strict at how I felt the bears needed to be treated. And it worried me that people were going to the volunteers or would. Might make the same mistakes that I had as I was learning more about the bears. So I became very protective and very. Almost like a tyrant in how I taught the volunteers to be around the bears and what you need to do to make sure the bears are healthy and that we're getting the right message. It. I became like, it's my way or the highway. And I realized, gosh, I'm just alienating the very same people that I'm depending on to help share the wonder of bears and other wildlife. So I knew it was time that I had to step back and. And then Stephanie and Ryan came, and I saw that same fire in their eyes to, you know, commit to our. To the bears, fight for the bears and to go on with this very important mission. So I try not to get involved anymore because I know how difficult I can be.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: I suppose once you start, you can't stop. I bet it's actually been thinking about. It's been 10 years since we've actually physically seen each other because it was 2015 when I met you. And I'm glad that I actually got to see you at the sanctuary in action.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: I learned a lot with all the challenges and stuff.
It's young people like you and your commitment. I keep using that word commitment, dedication to make a difference, that I saw this chance, that you. You all were my seeds of hope that we need to continue with the message for the future generations, then to continue that enlightenment, that fever, to make a difference. And you are one seed that certainly has sprouted in so many compassionate, feverish ways for the good. And I'd say the same for everybody that especially those that return or can return.
See the. How haunting the sanctuary is, but also how inspirational that you leave with this feeling that, you know, you gotta make a difference for them. And I use that word, difference and that one, and I know you'll roll your eyes, but I keep going back to that one story that I used year after year and those poor returning volunteers had to be subjected to. But that story, that, that. And there's many versions of the starfish parable. And it starts off with a man waking up in the morning. He was at this motel alongside the beach. And he woke up and went to the window as he often did. And it was a misty morning. The sun was just hitting the horizon, so it was still kind of dark, but he could make out the silhouette off in the distance on the beach. And it looked like he was dancing. This young individual, this young shape or silhouette was dancing, and that intrigued him. So he made his way out to the beach where this. It was a young man. It was a young boy, actually. He was probably 13, 14 years old. And he was feverishly trying to pick up starfish that came washed up ashore and thrown back into the ocean. And the man looked around, and so there's hundreds of starfish that were littering the beach. And he turned to him, he was perplexed, and he said, well, what are you doing? And the young man responded, say, without even looking up at him, I've got to keep. I got to try to get these starfish back into the sea. Sea, because once the sun hits them, they'll dry up and die. And the man goes, well, but there's hundreds of starfish stranded here. Why are you even putting forth that kind of effort? You. You know, it's a lost cause. And he did pause with a starfish in his hand, and he said, because I'm making a difference for this one. And so that's kind of the philosophy at the sanctuary. If you can make a difference for one bear and change one person's mind about how they understand or what their perspective is about bears, then you're doing a lot. That's a seed of hope.
And now that seed of hope will start another seed of hope in it becomes a wonderful force of understanding and advocacy for whatever you want to work towards. So I hope that I encourage inspired people, make a difference, make your life stand for something, because we've got so many opportunities, so many causes, and I see you and as one of those successes and what you're doing and what many of the volunteers are doing and Steph and the team and what they're doing, it's important.
And I find peace of mind knowing that that same spark that started my whole life of animal advocacy is being fired up constantly by new people that are moved by this cause.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: I know. I mean, I Remember back in 2015 as well, when you told the story, the starfish. I was inspired by it.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Oh, really? That's what I was hoping, because I know I said it every year because it was that important, and to me, it was inspirational, and it helped you prioritize what you want, your life. To me, that you're just not just surviving, but you're giving and you're making that difference. That's so important. And I feel the sanctuary is a wonderful foundation of understanding, tolerance, and compassion. It all comes together There. And that's why we're sitting on a diamond in the rough right there that's getting more and more polished to help people understand bears and other wildlife.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: I mean, it is, it is a wildlife sanctuary, not just bears, of course.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And that's something because many people suggested to Vince to make it a bear sanctuary, call our bears. But he wanted to include it as a wildlife sanctuary because he said, look at all the birds, the chipmunks. And so we stuck to that.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Winding back just for a little bit to talk about Vince. I was going to ask kind of what your memories of him were and what comes to mind when you think of him. Bill sent over some really nice photos from quote unquote, back in the day. And there was some really nice one. There's a really nice one. There's two that I really liked of you and Vince together. There's one, I think you're both walking together in the tree. And I just.
I really like those photos. And I was just wondering, like, what sort of feelings, memories come to mind when you think of Vince.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: Those were wonderful times in that both Bill and I were just being so enlightened by Vince and the bears and we understood, oh, the biologists are going to have a field day with this, because they tended to adhere to traditional thinking and management. And so watching us in close proximity of bears, they were very critical.
And yet I felt that once, if we could reach them through pictures and through understanding Vince, what motivated him, perhaps they could see the potential of the sanctuary, which really violated every biological theory that they were trained on. But anyways, Vince was an old crusty, I have to say, crusty. But below that grouchiness was this wonderful man who had a quite a sense of behavior, quite a sense of humor, I mean, and compassion, and very set in his ways. And I guess that trained me to be like I was, how the bear had to be treated and fed. But also his wild stories made you gravitate to him because he had these incredible stories and when he would be done with the story, he just twinkle his eyes and look at you and he had this little grin to see if you understood if you believed him or not. Like, one story would be that he said that one evening he was sitting outside with a few of the bears and that he saw Brownie. Brownie was a big brown bear that he loved. And then there's pictures of him with Brownie on one side and then Duffy on the other side. Brownie was brown, Duffy was black, and they're humongous animals. And he said while they were sitting there, here comes an astronaut. He thought it was an astronaut, but he looked at the face and it was one of the bears named. I'll call him Big Red. And that he came down and he was talking to Vince. And Vince was just enthralled to hear, look, even from space, they're coming through this special place of the bears. And that was one story. Another story was he was out toiling away in the meadow, putting buckets of corn and whatever he fed them at that time. And he was tired. He came in and there is. Who was it Clarence or. I forgot, or old Smokey was sitting on his couch, legs crossed, reading a newspaper.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Did you believe all these stories?
[00:31:50] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, it was the way he told him. Of course you didn't believe him, but it was.
It's a delightful way he communicated with the bears and with his stories about the bears that you just were captivated.
And he loved those bears. Another story was somebody in crowds of people would come there day and night. We were amazed at that. But anyways, a couple, an old couple, brought a box of country fried chicken. Timing, they said, now, this is for you. You. You always feed the bears, but this one is for you. And he thanked them very graciously, thanked them when they left.
You know, Bill and I watched him. And. And instead of taking it into his trailer, he brought it in amongst the bears and gave them each a piece of this chicken and shared it with them until there was nothing left. Yeah. And he spent all the money that he saved for retirement on the bears, feeding the bears.
And this is how. Dedicated. There's that word again. Devoted he was to the bears, which he called his bears.
Even one story, somebody, while he ran to town to buy donuts from patents for the bears, he'd come back with old donuts that they give him to give to the bears. And while he was gone, somebody came in and shot a few of the bears. Three bears, I believe one was. I believe it was Brownie.
And he couldn't find Brownie anywhere. And he saw one dead bear and an injured one. So he thought, oh, no, where's Brownie? Because Brownie would have been there waiting for the donuts to come. And so he walked out one of these logging trails that went to the north. And he found Brownie with. Laying down with his head in a skid track that's. They use skitters to pull the trees or the logs. And in the skid track there was water standing, and Brownie was Laying with his head almost touching the water, but it was in a very bad way. And so Vince twice a day would venture out there and take him chicken noodle soup. And he said, I think, yeah. And he did that religiously. And two weeks later, Brownie had strength enough to just come to the sanctuary, to what we call now the sanctuary, the meadow. And laid there while Vince just nursed him back to health. And that was a very special story. One year. And if I'm telling you too many stories, please.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Oh, no, never too many.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: One day we were out there, and Vince was always used to Brownie coming to him. And again, it draws images of him with Duffy and Brownie at one side, one on each side. One time he was, I thought, was pulling what he thought was a tick. And he pulled. And I could see Brownie grimacing, like, you know. And when I came over there, it wasn't a tick. It was one of those cysts that. Oh, right, we all get, including animals that he was trying to pull out. So we told him, it's not a tick. Leave it alone. But Brownie sat there very patiently, even though he was invisible. You know, pain when he pulled on it. Never tried to bite him or anything. There was this trust. But each year he looked forward to the bears coming back and his Brownie and Duffy coming back. And they did for so many years. Over a decade.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: When.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: When I. I forget when Brownie. When did he stop coming or was there.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: That's the year I can't remember.
Was it 1996? Karen Hauserman, who was always with Vic. Vince back then, would know the exact date. But it was. I think we were coming for a few years, two or three years before he didn't show up. And so Vince regularly would come out and visit and look, you know, search for all his friends. And it was raining, and we called him in his little apartment. By then he went to town because he was in a very bad way and. And told him Browning made it back. And Browning made it back a month late. And Vince got in his old Rick and E. Bear car and drove out there quickly and with his cane. And by that time he was, you know, quite arthritic and made his way in the rain to where Brownie was sitting, eating on some sunflower seeds or something in the woods in amongst these bushes, and made his way and got a bucket, inverted the bucket and sat on that bucket and petted Brownie and talked to Brownie while Brownie was eating. And Brownie had lost a lot of weight because he was getting older. And so this watch these two old friends together in the pouring rain and him talking to Brownie while he's being drenched and, and, and the peace and it was in the tranquility between the two of them, the trust. It was so moving. And he sat out there with Browning for a good hour and we couldn't convince him to take, you know, use the umbrella. We, you know, he just wanted us to be left alone with Brownie. And that brought tears to my eyes. And that's one of the many, many stories that I wish we could write a book on in Karen Hauserman would really know. She would be a great one about all his stories.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: Oh yeah. I mean I did, I've got, I've got here on record as well. Yeah, well, I was gonna say so. I mean it sounds like a lot of the way the ABA came together was quite organic. But I just wondered what the challenges you had to overcome initially to just get started. I'm sure there were. Sure there was a lot. It's no exaggeration to say the place was a bit of a garbage dump for a lot of people.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: It was.
[00:38:49] Speaker A: And you had to get that cleaned up.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: But it's surprisingly it was a big garbage dump because people are used to think. People used to think that bears love garbage. No, they're attracted to the smells. So people would bring their garbage and just dump it literally everywhere. From the beginning of where his gate started all the way back to the Magic circle I called it, because that's where all the bears congregate and they bring garbage and liquor bottles that we're drinking out of and just throw them down to the ground. So you waited in amongst all this garbage. But surprisingly when we got there, we saw past all that garbage and zeroed in on this old man that was just surrounded with bears. So once we decided, okay, we have to do something, we realized that to be credible and to try to generate this respectability and credibility for what our attempts were to make this a place of learning, that we had to clean up the garbage. And a team of very, very hard working volunteers were literally on our hands and knees and trying to pick up all the glass.
Vince would have, one of the people would come out with a truckload of those little creamers, used creamers. And so the bears lick out the milk, what was left in those creamers. So there were millions of those and all the old dumpy outbuildings that were there when the logging camp was active. And we got together and cleaned it up and we ate. You know, there was no kitchen facilities, no water out there, no electricity, nothing. So we started to work on our infrastructure so that we could continue working. And we used battery power for lighting. We were able to get a small trailer donated, really a little trailer for three. I mean, it had just one bedroom, but importantly, it had a propane stove so we could cook, cook, instead of eating out of cans. So we were able to cook warm food, but also get us out of the rain. And we'd all try to squeeze in there many people having to sit on laps of other people just to make it. But from there we had. We laughed, we cried. I think we called it the cook shack back then. I think we called it the cook shack.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: The cook shack that's there now.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: Yeah, now the cook shack was built. That trailer was finally, I think, discarded, Just fell apart. Was right written. But we get there and we'd laugh and cry and talk about the challenges because the locals at that time thought we were a bunch of bunny huggers and, you know, very opinionated, radical environmentalists that were going to wreak havoc on the town of. Or. So we got a lot of negative vibes that were when we left this little magical place. So trying to deal with that alongside of all the work that had to be done, the cleanup, and then starting to figure out now, how are we going to do this? How are we going to able to survive with trying to feed the bears and give them a better diet than perhaps what Vince did, only because he had zero money. And we started thinking that, okay, what we're going to have to do to pull in some revenue to continue working was to set up a 501c3 nonprofit. And Bill put that all together. And that took a lot of time, a lot of learning. And we're finally able to establish that, I think, in 1995. And then, therefore, we were able to get the word out through our little newsletters that all volunteer driven to tell our story and to ask for donations. And that began our journey to help fund this place of learning. And at the beginning, for several years, we never charged anybody because we were so concentrating on getting as many people as possible.
But also, not only did we clean up the garbage, we realized that we need in order to become credible and to be respectable and professional, that we had to. To cage the people and let the bears run free. Because back in the day, Vince didn't like what he saw, but he was old and wasn't effective in trying to discipline people. People were drinking alcohol and putting alcohol Bottles up to the bears mouths and chugging, letting the bears drink the alcohol. People were pushing on the bears, having their children go up and kiss the bears. It was mayhem. Certainly showed a disrespect of these animals. Wildness that should be respected and that, you know, an animal, especially bear, that lives their life in total fear, afraid of everything. Here they're pushing kids for photo opportunity. We wanted to stop that chaos, that circus. And so we built a deck and had wonderful volunteers come up and continue building this structure called the viewing deck. Where we limited the people up there, they could no longer go amongst the bears. And that brought on further fury from the town who were used to doing whatever they wanted with the bears, mingling with them. And I realized part of it, it was special. It's a humbling experience to move in amongst all these bears. But we wanted to also try to incentivize a feeling of respect for these animals and respect their wildness, their right to react to what they perceived that the bears perceived as potential, potential threat. So we were undergoing that kind of negativity. A lot of criticism in town.
Local store just down the way, several miles I guess. We were going in there to get a soda, Bill and I, and the store owner just reamed us out because no longer could the people feed the bears. We wouldn't let them throw food down because that's a circus environment. And even though we were feeding the bears, which is unnatural, that that was disrespectful from just throwing food down. And so they were angry because they made quite profit from selling marshmallows to the public when they would come out in Vince's day and just feed the bears marshmallows and all that. Well, when we stopped the people from mingling and feeding the bears, their bounty dried up. So we were hollered at from them. We were hollered at by many people. Some hunters thought we were radical anti hunting people, and certainly many of us were that, but many of us were non hunters hunters. One of our hardest working volunteers in the early days was, was a bear hunter. But he believed in the mission. And so we were coming at it from all angles. And even though we all had our strict strong opinions about the issue, we put that aside and to learn from each other and to work towards this mutual goal of helping people understand bears. So even one person put an advertisement for bear hunting on our gate, you know, to advertise their bear hunting shack and stuff and which we tore down. We had a giant cross put up crucifix put up right at the gate. Vince wanted that erected. And one of our very hard working volunteers, John schrantz, constructed this 15 foot cross because Vince said that he wanted the people to see that cross and understand that God was watching over the bears, that they better not try to hurt them or anything. So that cross still stands today. But in the early days, somebody tried to set it on fire and it did burn and it still has the burn marks.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Oh, wow. I didn't realize that.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: Yes, they try to burn it down. And somebody told us, one of the volunteers. So we ran down there with, you know, we didn't have water, we had to just kind of slap it with sheets and whatever we could and we were able to put it out. But that was the kind of the vitriol that some people had for us and what we were trying to do. But in spite of that, you know, we didn't get discouraged. We just brushed ourselves off, got up and returned to work trying to develop this incredibly inspirational place. So those were just some of. And there's so many others. But beyond that, finally we were working towards gaining some credibility. There was another bear biologist from Pennsylvania, very high profile. That came when Vince was running it in that circus atmosphere. And you know, he'd photograph and stuff, didn't like it, but he still saw the value of the photographs. We invited to get more credibility and more feedback of what we were trying to do. We invited him to come back. And he said to us, everything in my training teaches me that this is all wrong, but my heart and what I'm getting to be able to see tells me this is right.
And he didn't want to say it, although he allowed us to write that. But he was too.
He was afraid, I have to say, to let his peers know that. But he felt this incredible metamorphosis there, that understanding. One other bear biologist came out, he was there for a couple days, said he saw more in a few days than he had in his whole career of being a bear scientist. And so it was that kind of feedback that told us that we're still a diamond in the rough, we still still have some polishing to do, but that we were on the right track. And of course you're going to have still professionals who've never been there or just hear about that we're feeding bears that are just resistive to what we were trying to do, that still condemn and not. These are animals, wild animals that come in and out at their will. And yeah, people can say, well, they're Driven by the fear food, but also this atmosphere, trust, where they can finally rest from the challenges they face on the outside, the bears. And do we wish we could draw them in without the food? Absolutely. Look, Bill and I were against feeding wild animals. And not to mention these bears were being fed by Vince for decades. Vince and the public for decades. What would happen if we just suddenly stopped feeding them?
[00:51:23] Speaker A: I was gonna ask because I feel like I saw somewhere that there was talk of trying to wean the bears off initially and then probably good opportunity to sort of talk about how you tackled the subject of continuing the feeding and if you had to consult people or like how you came to the conclusion, we've got to keep going.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: Oh, definitely we thought about it because of all the criticism by professionals and we're trying to work so hard for professionals to understand what we were trying to achieve, that the feeding was wrong. And we believe that too. But if we could just be. Just wean them off gently instead of doing, you know, a breath stopping of the food, that perhaps we could wean them off. But it didn't work that way. Not that the bears were dependent on that food because they. Some would come in every day, and those were the old, vulnerable, injured ones, and the old ones would come in every day.
But when the fruiting summer fruits were starting to become ready, like the berries and other things, then they'd leave the sanctuary with all this delicious food. Because by that time we were feeding all kinds of things. We'd make a mix with juices and seeds and granola. They'd still be gone, many of them, for weeks to months, and then they come back again until that other natural form forge is available. And then they go back again. It's not like they sat there all day. Some people may say they sit there all day. But each bear had its own story and its own timing or schedule. And it's understandable once you're with these animals, why the old ones that had arthritis and, you know, really difficult in mobilizing, and the vulnerable ones, the ones with some paralysis or wound, would stay there longer to get the nutrition they needed to survive. Then it started to make sense that, okay, it's okay for what we were trying to achieve to continue feeding them and what's important for all the volunteers to recognize, yeah, it's wrong to feed wild animals, but I don't totally agree with that as far as birds and everything. But given what we were handed the situation and seeing the potential, that perhaps in this particular situation it was the right thing to do not knowing what would happen should we stop the feeding either by weaning or abruptly stopping that the benefits overshadowed the negatives. And then as more people professionals came and visited, they saw what we were talking about and unfortunately many people criticized without actually being there. You can't just be there, be there a couple hours. You got to be there for several days to see how the whole operation works and how the bears and what you get to see the bears do, the behaviors to understand truly what we're all about.
And I'm so sorry, I'm very transitional. I go from this subject.
[00:55:07] Speaker A: No, no, it's, it's, it's, it's. I'm just interested to hear everything. Yeah, I don't worry. I kind of. This is how I expected the conversation to go anyway, especially knowing me.
And now we'll have a smooth transition into the next episode where Clarie continues talking about the objectives of the sanctuary, notable humans and bears, and the one thing that I wanted to know about her rock collection. So stick around for that.
The Bear Den the American Bear association podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubbley. The music was composed by Revolution Music. Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Housman, Bill Lee, Clary Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka, Ross Coyer and Angie Page. You can find out more about the American Bear association at www.americanbear.org. you can find Vince Shooty Wildlife Sanctuary on Facebook and Instagram. You can ask questions and submit comments about the podcast to pswericanbear.org the ABC the ABA is a special circumstance. We do not condone feeding wild animals. If you enjoy this podcast, help support the ABA either by donating, becoming an ABA member, symbolically adopting a bear, or come visit the sanctuary during the season and say hello. And if you do enjoy this, please do us a favour. It will barely take any of your time, I promise. On whatever platform you're listening to this on, please either follow us, click the bell for updates, notifications Please share with family and friends and rate the podcast as it all helps us grow and is greatly appreciated.
