[00:00:00] Speaker A: Listeners may recall my chat with ABA President Steph Horner. Way Way.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: At the start of this run of.
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Episodes, we mentioned bearvault and how they visited the sanctuary last year with a new product for our bears to have a go at. In this episode, I've invited bearvault sales and marketing manager Grant Bradenbach into the bear den to dive deeper into bearvault.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: In this episode, we had a fascinating.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: Discussion covering bear safety in the backcountry, the food storage triangle, the conservation mission behind BearVault bear canisters, and the rigorous testing by bears that go into getting these certified.
We also talk about their new product, the BV1 canister, and how proper bear resistant food storage plays a critical role in reducing human bear conflict.
So, without further ado, there is a place in the remote Northwoods of Minnesota, North America. It's located near the town of orr, population approximately 300.
Outside of this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side. It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vint Schutte Wildlife Sanctuary run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short.
The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife through education, observation and experience.
I'm your host, Philip Stubley, and welcome to the Bear Den.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: So, hi, Grant, how are you doing today?
[00:01:30] Speaker C: Very good, Phillip. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast today.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Not a problem. It's always a pleasure to have new voices on the podcast. So just out of interest, where are you speaking to us from? Because we get people from all over in the bear den, so it's nice to know where about you are.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Calling in today from just outside of Boulder, Colorado. This is where Bear Vault is headquartered and where we do all of the final assembly and quality checks on bear canisters that head out all over the world.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: So I suppose if you're based in Boulder, Colorado, you must be in these outdoor activities and sports. Skiing and things like that. Snowboarding.
[00:02:09] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it's a big backyard out here, really, you know, and if I'm not in the office, I'm usually back at your skiing or rock climbing or. I love long distance backpacking and even trail running and fast packing. I mean, really, if it's some activity under the sun, you can, you can probably find me doing it in the, in the mountains out here. It's. It's wonderful.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Oh, awesome. I genuinely think I've never met anyone from Colorado that isn't into outdoor activities.
[00:02:37] Speaker C: So you'd be surprised. There's a few, but it's, it's, it's definitely the majority.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Oh, brilliant. Yeah. I've currently got skiing on my brain as well because we're, we're going on a ski trip. We sorted one out in a couple of months to go to Bulgaria. So I'm looking forward to that.
[00:02:52] Speaker C: Wonderful.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: Hopefully there, hopefully Bulgaria is having a better winter. We've been having just really an abnormal, abnormal year out here in Colorado and really a lot of the American west with, you know, really, really winter drought conditions, we've been having winter wildfire risk out here. And, and I mean, if it doesn't really turn around, it's going to be, you know, a concern coming into the summer. And I mean, even just, you know, food availability for bears as well. And it could be a concerning year for human bear conflict, even if it doesn't change. So it's, it's been disappointing for skiing, but potentially concerning beyond that out here. So I hope you're getting better snow in Europe this year.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, for, from the sounds of it, it's going well. But yeah, I know what you mean about the seasons are just all out of sync slightly and you never quite know what to expect at the minute. It's. Yeah, it's interesting times, put it that way.
Firstly, before we get into kind of the mechanics of bear Vault, if you could just give us a little bit of your background, that'd be great, like how you ended up working at bear vault. Like what you're, what is it about bears that sort of capture your imagination? I mean, coming from the UK where we don't have large wild mammals like bears, they're like, they're endlessly fascinating to me, especially the more I learn about them and the sort of the varieties of bears across the world. So, yeah, that'd be great to hear your perspective.
[00:04:14] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in Idaho and grew up outdoorsy, was working out there for a nonprofit organization that was working on proactively preventing homelessness rather than a reactive approach. It was awesome organization, but got to a point where I was looking for a career change. And I knew I wanted to be in the outdoor industry, but I didn't want to just work for any outdoor brand that was selling, you know, selling other thing that people don't really need. And that's why this job with bear vault really stuck out to me because, you know, yes, of course, it's a piece of gear and you know, it's, it's a for profit company, but it's, it's really about seeing people have healthy coexistence with bears in the backcountry. It's seeing bears not be, you know, euthanized for food conditioning. It's seeing, you know, people having, you know, these wonderful, authentic wild experiences in the backcountry that aren't ruined by, you know, a bear accessing someone's food. And that really kind of connected with that nonprofit background for me of saying, hey, you know, here's, here's something that's actually making a difference. But it's in the outdoor industry. It's, it's, you know, related to the things that, that I love and, and you know, that can be, that can be more fun. So I've been here about five years now and just my love for bears has continued to grow throughout that. Like you said, I mean, they are just such an amazing species. And I continually learn new things. You know, rarely do I do I go to a conference or, you know, read an academic paper about bears that I don't come away learning something new and say, wait, that too, you know, or that difference, you know, between subspecies or in this particular area. And just, I mean, they are just such wonderful creatures that I think are so often, you know, as I'm sure you discuss often the podcast, so often, they misunderstood and underestimated. And it's really cool to get to work in that day in and day out.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Oh, that's fantastic to hear.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: So how did Barebolt come about? Like, what's the philosophy behind it? How did the founders come to the idea, like, oh, this is something that we need to make, like people need.
[00:06:30] Speaker C: Yeah. So the story really, really starts back in Yosemite national park and the Sierra Mountain Range in California, which really, there's a long history of bears out there. And most, most of the history, unfortunately is not positive. You know, there used to be amazing grizzly bears in that range. I mean, it's the grizzly bear still on the California state flag, you know, and for a long time it was seen as really just a large scale tourist attraction. You know, they would set up bleachers at the dumps in Yosemite national park. And you know, the bears really, really suffered as, as a result. And you know, in time, basically modern, you know, attractant management really started to come about in, in the parks. And you know, that meant, you know, people properly locking up food in the front country and campgrounds, but in the back country, that was still, you Know, kind of your old school, you know, kind of boy scout mentality, you know, hang, hang a bag in, in the tree. But the bears in that area and really just like the bears everywhere have always been notoriously smart. You know, when they're food motivated, when they know that there's delicious, you know, human food and calories, you know, strung up in a tree at. It's really not too hard for a bear to puzzle that one out and send up a cub. And basically so into the, into the 90s, you know, in Yosemite national park and in other places as well. But they're, they're basically the bears were getting into people's food and they realized they needed some sort of additional solution that that was actually bear resistant, not just a bag hung in the tree.
So there were some initial concepts for bear resistant food containers which when you boil it down, it's really, it's a pretty simple concept, right? It's a container that you put all of your food and scented items in. Good rule of thumb is anything you put on your skin or in your mouth that a bear might be attracted to, even if it's branded, you know, unscented, it's, it's probably got a scent to a bear's nose. And putting all those things in the can, um, you know, putting some sort of lid on it and you know, making out of non pliable materials that even a persistent bear, you know, ultimately will give up and say, hey, this is not worth my time, effort and energy. I'm going to return to those natural food sources. And it keeps, keeps the bears out of the human food. And so basically back in the late 90s, there were a few kind of designs that came out for, for these canisters and they got the job done. But they, they tended to be really heavy, bulky, cumbersome to use and it was a real chore to bring it into the backcountry. And so the Original founders of BearVault said, hey, this is great. We love the idea of creating a device that's keeping bears healthy, but there's gotta be a way to make this a little bit more friendly for the humans also.
And so bearvault was the first company that made a canister that had transparent sides so you could actually see that hidden granola bar at the bottom that you're search, searching for. And also a lid that didn't require tools to open it.
And the design has continued to evolve over the years. And as we'll discuss later, there's actually a really exciting new design that we've got coming out this spring. But Behrvault has really developed a reputation for offering canisters that find the right balance of resisting bears as our first priority. Protecting the wildlife, but also providing features that make it usable for a human on the trail.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Oh, fabulous. I mean, like you say, I mean, I know it's called bear vault, but I suppose you did just say wildlife. So I guess it's, it's again other wildlife in general. It's handy for you don't. It's not exclusively for bears exactly.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: You know, we, we joke often about the, the mini bears or the micro bears, you know, especially the, the rodents and whatnot. Like in, in recent years, you know, even where there are not as many, you know, food storage orders which depending on if the National Park Service or the Forest Service, the, the different regulations and laws for required, being required to carry a canister can take different names. But there's many places still where the Forest Service says hey, it'd be great if you carried this, but you know, we're not going to force you to, to bring this product along.
And most of the Appalachian Trail corridor is like that and it's, it's full of bears. And you know, we've continued to advocate for more canister use to reduce human bear conflict. But surprisingly, one of the biggest reasons we've seen hikers carrying bear canisters is not for the American black bear, but rather for all of the rodents that can be a disease vector, the mice in the shelters and whatnot. The can also does a great job of keeping those out. And hey, if that's what it takes for people to carry it, that kind of additional species, we're all for it.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: No, it's great. And is it, is it airtight, like there's no smell or anything that comes out of it?
[00:11:40] Speaker C: It's a really good question. So no, it substantially reduces the scent transmission. But we don't even try to beat bears noses. I mean, we know that they are just incredible, you know, with all of those terminates in the nose and olfactory bulb and just we know that their noses are just, are just so wonderfully adapted. And you know, of course the canister substantially reduces the scent transmission, but you know, even the food residue on your hands, you know, that touches the can, the bears can pick up that scent. So the philosophy is all, it's more about, you know, outsmarting the paws, jaws and claws of the bear rather than trying to beat the bear's sense of smell. Because also the vast majority of People are camping in places where the bear, you know, where people have camped before. Right. And the bear has those places memorized. And once it's in those places, the bear has great eyesight too. It might not be 2020 vision, but the bear can also say, hey, look, there's some food. So we recognize that we just can't really beat their, their noses. And so instead it's, hey, how can we make something that's frustrating enough to get in that they realize they are expending more energy than it's worth and after a few minutes they're going to leave it alone and move on to, to seek other natural, um, which is, you know, breaking down that food conditioning or just, you know, stopping that curiosity in the first place.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, yeah, bears, they love an easy meal. So yeah, the harder it is, the, the more likely they're going to just give up and then they'll learn. Oh, well, I can't do anything with this. I'm not even going to bother.
[00:13:24] Speaker C: So in a lot of places, you know, we've, we've seen trail cam type footage of, you know, bears that have, have interacted with, with bear vault canisters previously and they, they know that they can't get in. And we've, we've even seen, it seems almost anthropomorphic, but we've seen them just swat them over out of, out of frustration, not even trying to get in.
And you know, maybe, maybe they're checking to see if somebody just left the lid ajar.
But I like to think that, that it's, it's out of frustration that they know they're not getting an easy, easy meal.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: No. Yeah, I would think it's probably frustration as well. Yeah, just a little bit more on the canister there. Like. So what's it actually, you said it can be transparent. Like what's it actually made out of? If someone was to buy one, I guess what's the kind of guarantee on it? Is it like a lifetime guarantee or.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah, it's a, it's a specialty polycarbonate. Basically it's somewhat similar to the material that bulletproof glass is made out of, but it's especially formulated to, to be lightweight.
And, you know, it's this funny balance of, you know, it needs to remain strong under, you know, like a biting force is very different from say, like the pumping force that, that some bears use. It has to do all of that. You know, the canister still can take a little bit of, of a beating, you know. Even if the bear doesn't get in, most times it's, you know, it's just a scratch here and it's perfectly fine. But other times, you know, the bears don't really, you know, puts, put some dents in it, so to speak. And we stand by all of those products. And if a bear really any wildlife, porcupine, mouse, elk, we've even seen elk mess with canisters. If any bear puts damage on the canister, we replace those free of charge. For folks we want to make sure they have something that's, you know, strong and ready, ready for their next adventure.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: Keep the adventure going.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: Right, Exactly. There's, there's our brand line.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: We got it. I know it did my research and yeah, and you did say it's, it is worldwide. Like it's available outside of the U.S. right. Just out of interest.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: Yeah. So we, you know, definitely the United States and Canada are the biggest spots where we, you know, that's, that's the vast majority of our footprint where the product is known and we sell quite a few. That being said, with the recovery of the brown bear in Europe, we've been seeing a lot more interest in Europe into Italy, especially Eastern Europe, Czech Republic and Romania, places like that. We've been seeing a lot of interest in the canister.
We've also seen a lot of uptick in Japan. I think a lot of people have seen Japan in the news lately with human bear conflicts.
And in the backcountry, bear canisters have been an important tool there as well. And we're just starting to see some interest in Taiwan as well. So, you know, really anywhere that there is backcountry travel, you know, with wild camping or, you know, backpacking that's not in a hut to hut system, but also potential for human bear conflicts. The bear vault's a great tool.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah. As you say, Italy, Romania, Japan, they are the ones you're always seeing the headlines about. I mean, I wondered as well if you had any, any numbers, like, don't worry if you don't. But like, how often does a bear becomes food conditioned? How does that lead to it having to be relocated or euthanized? And I know in most cases it's euthanized. I just wondered if you actually had any numbers on that.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: Yeah, the best, the best piece of data that I have, there was a really good jurisdictional survey through the US and Canada from the IBA that was conducted a couple of years ago looking just at, just at black bears, which is obviously, you know, by and large There's a lot more black bears than there are grizzly bears, but it was about 2,000 bears a year being euthanized for human bear conflict, largely due to food conditioning. There are bears that may have been euthanized, were not necessarily food conditioned. But the data would say that almost every bear that was euthanized due to human bear conflict, there was a food conditioning component there. So that's a lot of bears, and that number breaks our hearts. Um, and we would love to be a part of bringing that number down. Of course, you know, many of those bears are in a front country type context. You know, your bird feeders, your trash, you know, your classic attractant management, boneyards, things like that. But, you know, the, the backcountry is a really important location too. And many of those bears are in a, in a backcountry context. And proper food storage is. Is really one of the best ways to save a bear's life.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was just thinking as well, with that number 2000, you know, sometimes there'll be the. They say the, the culprit, let's say, but sometimes, like several other bears may get killed as sort of collateral because they don't know. We often see which bear as well. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, even if it's making sort of food storage second nature to people, you know, it's not even. It shouldn't be an inconvenience. It should be something that they're, you know, when they're doing their checklist. But when they're packing the bag, that should be one of the top things, you know, along with something like bear spray. Like it's going in there. Right? It's.
[00:18:46] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Phillip, we need you on our marketing team. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's really, you know, we want people to kind of rethink their packing plan because often, you know, they kind of pack everything that, that people feel are essentials, you know, things that get them, you know, throughout, throughout their trip. And then they kind of walk up to their pack with this bear cash and say, oh, my gosh, how's this thing going to fit? When, you know, really the, the mindset should start first with, okay, my first priority is to be a steward of this landscape. And the bears, you know, this is their habitat, this is their home. How can I, how can I be a steward of that? The bear canister is the first piece of that. Great. All right, now that's taken care of. I also, you know, thinking about Leave no Trace principles in the backcountry and things of that nature. Now, what else, what else can I pack but making food storage a priority and, you know, not doing it just because, you know, the park ranger tells you you should, but because you truly have, have a heart posture that says, hey, I respect the wildlife in this, in this space and I want to do what I can to, to make sure that wildlife is thriving, of course, for the health of the ecosystem. But also, whoever comes down this trail after me when they see a bear, it's magical for all of the right reasons. You know, it is this amazing experience that, that makes the backcountry what it is and not a negative experience of that bear, you know, tearing up your backpack or something, trying to find a peanut, you know.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely. And well, you mentioned the Appalachian Trail there and you've been advocating for people to use bear vault there. How does it look across North America, like other sort of areas that are adopting bearvault more than others and you're sort of targeting those areas that are probably more in need.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a patchwork. We have a really good map actually on, on our website where you can go and, and view basically in red. We have areas that legally require a bear resistant food container. And then it also has overlap, known improbable ranges of black bears and then known improbable ranges of grizzly bears and, you know, coastal brown bears. And that's for, for North America that this map covers. And you know, we are always really encouraged when we see a land manager take the step to implement like a food storage order and require canisters. But often we wish it didn't have to come to that because it often means that that's a reactive choice. Usually something bad has happened. Usually several bears have been euthanized.
My favorite example of this is the Maroon Bell Snowmass Wilderness. Are you familiar with that area in Colorado?
[00:21:33] Speaker B: I'm afraid I'm not, actually. No. I'm interested to hear about it, to.
[00:21:38] Speaker C: Book a plane ticket. And it is just some of the most iconic mountains in Colorado and really wonderful backpacking back there. It's a pretty extensive wilderness area. Few mountains over 14,000ft, beautiful lakes, it's. It's a wonderful place. But, you know, they were having terrible human bear conflict and it's only, it's only black bears in that area.
But some really aggressive behavior. Some people got drug out of tents.
You know, food was getting pulled down every night.
You know, it was, it was a lot. And basically, you know, the forest service Brought in a food storage order as kind of an emergency response. And they said, you know, we're going to take a really strict hard line here. Everyone going to the backcountry has to have a product approved by the interagency grizzly bear committee, even though it's only black bears in the area. And we can talk more about testing, but that's, that's the gold standard for, for bear resistance. And within five years, the rate of human bear conflict dropped 98%. And it really went back. The bears chilled out. It went back to, to being normal. Of course, a few key bears were removed from the ecosystem, but in general, with food storage, the area healed. So we're often engaging with land managers and our nonprofit partners with folks like the Appalachian Trail Conservancy to advocate for really pushing for folks to use cancers, whether that's through something formal like a food storage order or through more informal means like education to be, hey, let's be proactive about using a canister.
You know, we don't. Just because we're not hearing about a lot of human bear conflict in this area doesn't mean that there couldn't be human bear conflict here. It just requires a bit more habituation and food conditioning. And, you know, so many of these backcountry areas are becoming more popular and it's really on that way to happening. And so we can save ourselves a lot of grief, A lot of euthanized bears, potentially people being hurt if we do the right thing and we, we manage our attractants in the first place. And so it's very much a patchwork across the United States and Canada to your question. But as a broader trend, when you look at it over the last 20 years, it's definitely moving in the direction of more canister requirements.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and it's like, I guess, taking responsibility and ownership ourselves.
And I was going to say, actually, it's nice to hear, like, you've got an example of like, the, the bare vault canisters working. Because I was going to say, like, how do you measure that? Because if someone goes out with a bare vault canister and then comes back without a problem, I suppose that's, that's a win. So. But you can't really exactly.
[00:24:41] Speaker C: It.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: It was definitely my, my canister that has, you know, made the trip, but it's tricky.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: You don't, you don't. It doesn't make the news every time a plane lands safely. Right?
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
But no, that's really nice to hear. And I'll be definitely Google Imaging Colorado after this.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Come say hi. I'll. I'll be your tour guide.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Oh, great, you're on.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: You mentioned actually, well, I did have a note to ask about the interagency grizzly bear committee. So yeah, it's probably a good time to segue to that because like you say they've certified, certified bear vault there. It's a requirement, I think you said. So can you explain who they are and what sort of tests they actually perform?
[00:25:22] Speaker C: Yeah, the IGBC is a really cool organization. Basically it's a collaboration between a bunch of different government agencies here in the states. So it's got, the Forest Service is involved, the National Park Service, those are the big two. But I believe there's also representatives from tribal government, state governments, the Bureau of Land Management, Fish and Wildlife Service. Really everyone is, everyone in a government role is involved. And the IGBC has a larger mission that is, you know, really to, to manage the recovery of the grizzly bear through various defined ecosystem areas in kind of the western northwestern United States.
One piece of that organization is bear resistant product testing. And essentially the IGBC has, maintains a list of products that have passed their testing and the testing, basically they have what I like to call professional grizzly bears. And these bears, it is their full time job to basically get into products and they're really good at what they do. And so there's two facilities that partner. One is the Grizzly Wolf Discovery center in West Yellowstone, Montana and the other is the Bear center at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington. And these two facilities, and there's also, you know, these facilities do other things for you know, visitor education and bear research.
But essentially, you know, if you, let's say Philip, you know, you've, you've designed a new cooler and you've got a really awesome cooler design and you really think it's going to, you know, change things. And it's, it's a huge improvement on other, other coolers out there. But you know, you want to make sure that it's, it's bare resistant. So they'll put your cooler out there or in our case they' put you know, our bear resistant food container out in the yard with the bears and they will put whatever the bears, you know, favorite kind of high value attractant is there. It might be dog kibble, fish heads and honey water. You know, it's usually pretty gross. And then basically there's a video camera and a stopwatch and the bear will come up to the canister and as soon as the bear starts interacting with it, with, you know, biting it, clawing it, chewing it, or pumping on it, the timer will run. If the bear steps back or is just licking the can and it isn't actually engaging with it, the timer will also stop. And you have to accumulate 60 minutes of contact time with, with these bears. And they're really good at what they do. You know, if there's, if there's a flaw in the product, they'll point it out really quickly.
And, you know, there's, there's kind of a hall of fame or maybe a hall of shame of products, you know, from all sorts of manufacturers that, you know, it's like, yeah, this, this, this seems really strong. There's no way the bear is gonna, you know, get into this and then they'll, they'll tear it apart. And so these bears, if you pass the full 60 minutes, the product comes out, it still has to be functional, be able to open and close. If it's totally gummed up and jammed, that's also a fail.
And then once that's all determined, there'll be an official review of the footage and then a certification number will be issued. And if you have that certification number, you put that on your product. So bare vault products, if you return them over on the bottom, they all say IGBC SERT number, have a pound symbol and then, and then couple digit number. And that is the number that most land managers are looking for in whether they allow a product into their park or not. The exact language and how those lists are defined varies a little bit from place to place. But these days in the 2020s, the IGBC really is the gold standard for bear testing.
And it's always exciting to, and a little nerve wracking to go into those tests because the bears can be a little bit unpredictable. But it's always an exciting culmination of if you have a new product, you do all sorts of computer modeling lab testing. You put in front of some bears that are not with the igbc and then ultimately you put it in front of the IGBC bears and do you pass?
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:29:55] Speaker B: I feel like this is a reality show in the making.
[00:29:59] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: A league table of these bears. Wow.
It's fascinating.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: And I mean, they're fun. Are you familiar with Tom Scott, another British YouTuber kind of famous for education?
[00:30:12] Speaker B: The name rings a bell. Yeah.
[00:30:15] Speaker C: He did a piece on the testing center in West Yellowstone a couple years ago. And I mean, it, it went, you know, wonderfully viral. I mean, people, people find this so interesting that, that, you know, there are, there are bears and it is their job to, to try to outsmart the humans. And you know, we all joke about the substantial overlap between the, the smartest of bears and the dumbest of humans, but man, the bears, the bears of these facilities are, are certainly on the, on the smart end of the spectrum. Yeah.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Especially when it comes to getting a food a bit.
[00:30:48] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: Oh, nice. Oh, well, I mean, so, okay, for instance, let's do a little scenario. So the bear. The canister's been tested. I've gone out and bought one. I'm going hiking. I've got all my kit, you know, I've done, you know, all the background stuff, permits, and told someone where I'm going. I've done all the things I should do. And then I'm in the backcountry. It's. It's a multiple day hike, I guess. So I'm getting ready to go to bed. I've got my food items, they're all packed away or whatever. It's items I would put in my bare bolt canister. Where do I store it? Like, is it. Do I sleep with it in the tent or do I put it outside? Or. I know you talked about how hanging food in a tree, it's not particularly effective anymore. So like, what am I, what am I doing with this canister, like when I'm actually asleep? Because like you say, it's not airtight. So a bear is going to know it's there.
[00:31:36] Speaker C: That's a great question, Philip. Are you familiar at all with the food storage triangle?
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Oh yeah, I've heard of that.
[00:31:43] Speaker C: So basically that is, that applies here. And basically you. The idea is to create an equilateral. I mean, roughly, right, you're in the backcountry, you're not getting out your protractor, but roughly an equilateral triangle.
That is, you know, each, each leg of your triangle is about 70 big steps. So the three points of your triangle are, you know, where your tent is, where you're sleeping, and that should be at least 70 big steps from where you cook your food and you know, clean your, clean your cookware and hang out for the evening snacking and brushing your teeth and whatnot. And that area should also be another 70 big steps away from where you store your food at night. And that's again, 70 big steps from the tent. So all of, all of those three locations are spread out. So that basically the idea here is that you're creating separation between you and Your food so the bear doesn't get mixed up, doesn't mix you up with your food. You know, we see a lot of well intentioned but misguided folks trying to use their food as a pillow and, you know, thinking that their, their body odor will kind of mask the food and that the bear, you know, won't, won't bother them. And sometimes that can work. But it's a great way also to get a bite on the top of your head from a bear thinking it's accessing human food. And so the idea is creating that, creating that distance separation. The canister is meant to withstand the bear. So ideally you wouldn't even hear the bear messing with the canister in the night. You would come out in the morning and say, oh look, it moved a few feet to the right. It's got a bite mark on it. And some, some bear slobber. Gross. But you know, it's perfectly fine. I didn't, I wouldn't want to wash it.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: I'd be like, I treasure it.
[00:33:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you know, but, but you're not having a showdown with a bear, you know, at, at 2:00am in the dark, you know, trying to, to get it to leave your, your food alone.
And so as far as placing that can, you know, really you just want to avoid a steep ravine or a cliffside. You know, you want to avoid water. You wouldn't want it to sink to the bottom of a lake or a river. And beyond that, the spot is not super important. The bear might move it around a few feet in any direction, but because it's round and slippery, the bear is not just going to tuck it under their arm and, you know, walk off, never to be seen again.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: That's something I was wondering. Pick up on. All right, that's, that's good to know.
[00:34:11] Speaker C: And the thing is, it really wouldn't be in their best interest, right. Thinking that they're all about efficiency. Right. For a bear, it's, you know, what can I do to get the most calories for the least effort? It really wouldn't be in the bear's best interest to take it off, you know, to their den to get out their lab tools to decipher how the locking mechanism works and figure it out. You know, they're going to work on it in the spot where they, where they encountered it. And that's where they're going to try to get into the canister.
And when they can't, they'll leave it in the, in the area.
So one of, I will say One of my favorite places to store. Store the can. If you can find this. If you're somewhere that's below tree line and like most forests in the American. American west, and even really in the east, too, there's always some trees that have fallen down, you have deadfall on the ground, and often you'll get kind of a. A triangle of trees where they've. They've overlapped a little bit. And think of it as a little bit of a playpen. And I'd love to set my canister inside this area where there's fallen logs on all sides with, you know, a few square feet in between the logs. And that way the bear can bat it back and forth in that area, but it probably won't knock it out of that playpen, so to speak. And, you know, you might have, you know, it. Rather than it taking, you know, two minutes to find the canister, if it's been messed with in the morning, it's. It's right there. So it's one of my favorite little, little tips.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: Oh, nice.
[00:35:39] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: I was actually gonna ask, like, if you had any personal experiences hiking with the Bearville canisters, Any stories there?
[00:35:45] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, and it's funny. I've been. I've. It's funny. It's. You know, it seems like as soon as you work for a bear company, the bears all kind of know that and they. They avoid you. You know, I've. I've kind of secretly rooted that, you know, one of these times, you know, my canister, while I'm out personally backpacking, will, you know, really have an interaction with a bear. And I've. My canister's had some interaction with some pretty feisty marmots and. And things of that nature, but I still have yet to have a bear munch. Munch on my canister for all the nights I've spent in the backcountry. So they seem to know that I work for Bear Vault.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna ask as well. This is just a random. One day. I'm like, raccoons, I guess they're quite crafty as well. Obviously, I'm just imagining with their hands they're not going to be able to get in either.
[00:36:31] Speaker C: No, honestly, a lot of people.
We have seen some people that have taken bear vaults into areas that are not bear habitat simply for the raccoons.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And it works effectively there, I guess.
[00:36:46] Speaker C: Works great. Yeah.
[00:36:47] Speaker B: Oh, good.
That's interesting. What is the sort of feedback you get from most customers?
[00:36:52] Speaker C: You know, most people. Most people really Learn to love it. You know, I think. I think there are some customer hesitations where people say, you know, man, this. This thing's, you know, it's not zero ounces. You know, it is something that I have to change, maybe the way I've packed for years.
But we find that people really fall in love with. With the canister, and it becomes part of their rhythm and routine. You know, for instance, at. At night, let's imagine you roll into camp after hiking a long day. It's 30 minutes to sunset. You know, would you rather spend those 30 minutes at sunset sitting on your can, eating your dinner, watching the sunset, or, you know, trying to throw a rock over a tree branch, you know, and. And it never quite seems to get where you want it to do, and the rope gets tangled. And, you know, we find that it usually takes people about half an hour to get a good, you know, tree hang. And even then it's not that good. And there's a lot to say that folks tend to overestimate their abilities when. When it comes to hanging food in. In trees.
And so people. People have. Have reported back to us again and again that, you know, they love the simplicity and the convenience when you forget your, you know, when you check your pockets and there's that tube of chapstick that you thought made it in the can, but actually, you know, I started to go into the tent. You just walk over, you open up the lid, you drop it in, and you close it. Rather than, you know, funneling, you know, with. With ropes, trying to get, you know, a bag down out of a tree. And then, you know, once it's there, people are sleeping well at night. You know, it's. It's this. It's a sense of peace of mind. It's trip insurance that I'm not going to have to go out and, you know, interact with a bear that's trying to pull down, you know, a hung food bag in the night and instead sleeping better at night?
Plus, it makes for a really good stool at camp. And so, you know, it's kind of an unexpected little. Little feature. And all that goes to say that the people that use canisters tend to be really positive about them. And once people start using canisters, they really don't stop using canisters.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah, there's hooked for life after that.
Oh, great. I'm sold. You know what I mean? But I'm fairly easy. What's kind of like the best product for a beginner or do you have like, a bestseller? Like, what's the side of price range on these, these things just.
[00:39:17] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a really good question.
So, you know, rather than thinking about it in terms of like just starting out, usually the best way to think about the can really is how, how long am I going to be out there? You know, what sort of volume do I need?
And you know, we like to think about it in terms of like days of food.
And don't forget about, you know, if you're traveling the backcountry with say a dog, you also need to fit the dog's food in there. And like we talked about earlier, any of those scented items, you know, the toiletries, this chapstick, cannabis products, medications, all of those things need to go inside the canister at night. But good rule of thumb is around 100 cubic inches of space per day per person.
So our line of bear canisters until the new one that we're launching this spring has been the BV425, BV450, BV475 and B500. And essentially the 425 is one to two days of storage. The BV450 is three to four days of storage. The BV475 is five to six days of storage, and the BV500's about a week and up of storage in there. And that's really how we encourage people to think about it. Is all right, on the trip that you're purchasing the bear canister for, how much space do you need? And it's a little bit better to err on the side of caution. It's better to have a little bit of extra space. You can always put something in that's not necessarily food. Rather than standing there trying to, you know, break your granola bars into finer pieces so that it, that it fits in and crush your food into, into a finer space.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I've definitely learned from experience. Always over pack on food. Always take more than you think you need.
[00:41:04] Speaker C: Yes, because absolutely.
[00:41:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Been, been there where you know, you get hangry and it's not good when you've say it's, it's raining and you're kind of like you still got, you know, a few miles to go. It's just, it's just not the, it's not the best feeling in the world.
[00:41:19] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: So yeah, you mentioned this new product which I'm excited to talk about because it's how you kind of got involved with us at the American Bear association, which, and we run the Vincruti Wildlife Sanctuary.
So I Just wondered how you first heard about us and then, yeah, if you want to talk about this new product that we sort of tested out at the sanctuary back in late 2025.
[00:41:43] Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. So, yeah, Vince, Judy is a really cool place and it's always been on our radar at Bear Vault. You know, it's just amazing, you know, all of the education that vinscruti, the sensor, is doing up there and, you know, working with people and helping people understand bears for the species that they are and demystifying a lot of fears and, you know, even are one of the owners of Bare Vault, I believe, did a, did a big education workshop out there quite a few years ago. And it's been, it's been, you know, respected and on our radar for years. And, you know, we talk to so many people in the field that, you know, have such a, such a deep respect for, for the work up there and. Or so, yeah, we. So essentially, as we were working on our new canister, which was called the BV1, we wanted to do two things. We wanted to see some additional interaction with black bears and we also wanted to get some really high quality imagery as well. One thing about testing at the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee facilities is that they tend to not be very good for photographs. You know, it's, it's kind of a zoo like environment, a lot of fencing and wire and concrete, whereas, you know, Vince Schutte, I mean, it's this beautiful patch of forest with lush green grass and, you know, mature Minnesota trees. And I mean, it's, it's a beautiful place. Right. And so we wanted to, we wanted to see how the canister would interact with some black bears as well as get that imagery. And so we, we actually worked with a local photographer who's a friend of Vince Schutte, Bear Center.
Stan.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: Stan Tequila. He's been on the pod, so don't.
[00:43:43] Speaker C: Worry, the audience knows. Yeah, what a legend.
And so he went up there to get some video footage as well as still imagery so that we could kind of understand both of those goals. And it was great to have the product out there. It was fun because then just not even a week after that, we were at the Human Bear Conflicts Workshop in Kalispell, Montana, and got to chat with some of the folks from the center as well and talk about having the canister up there as well too, which was just a really wonderful experience.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: No, that's brilliant. Well, yeah, well, let me know when it's available. I'll drop a link in the show. Notes so people can have a look at it themselves.
[00:44:26] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. So my understanding is that this podcast, when, when this, when this is reaching your ears out there, the BV1 will be available. We're, we're rolling it out on March 10, and we're, we're really excited about it. If I were to sum this canister up, there's kind of three big pain points we hear from people and we want to make, you know, that's, that's Bear Vault's legacy. Right. You know, we want to make this as approachable for people to use as possible.
If, if a canister is, is easy and seamless to use, people are more likely to take that in the backcountry. They're more likely to comply with food storage recommendations and regulations. And it's a win for the bear in addition to people.
So the three things we often hear are that canisters can be hard to open, that they can be heavy, and that they can be bulky or take up a lot of pack space.
And this can really seeks to address all three of those. So we have a brand new button design, this patent pending, that is easy to push in in all temperatures, regardless of whether it's cold or hot out. Even folks who have weaker hands or perhaps even arthritis in fingers or thumbs are able to open this canister with a lot of ease, which we're really excited about that and that it's going to make it more accessible for everyone and no one's going to feel locked out of their morning coffee. When it comes to weight, there's been some really exciting advances in material science, and we're using some new polycarbonate resins, our materials that are similar but a little bit different from the ones we have previously used, along with some new manufacturing techniques to essentially put more, more thickness in the place that bears target the most, allowing us to shave weight in other places. So between the new resins, new tech manufacturing techniques, and strategically mapping where it should go in the canister, we've taken about 20% off of the weight on a weight to volume ratio, which we're excited. We're expecting all of kind of the ultralight gram counting type backpackers to really, really celebrate this one. But the last feature is, the one that I think we're the most excited about, is that the canister telescopes, it has two halves, so it separates at the middle rather than a traditional lid on the top. And these two halves telescope into each other so it expands and collapses. So as you eat your food on your trip, the canister gets smaller and smaller. Or you can begin by packing it down nice and small to fit in your backpack. So we expect that people are going to be really excited about the adjustability of the size.
So if you're listening and that, that sounds interesting.
Interesting to you, go ahead and Google the Bear Vault BV1. It should be at REI or you can purchase it on the bearvault.com website. And we hope that it's a great tool for you to protect wildlife in your area.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: Well, that's amazing. And you can tell it's made by people who are going out and backpacking themselves. Like they're thinking about how this can serve people best. Oh, that's really cool.
[00:47:43] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we've, we've, we've talked a lot about the sort of product and bevel and I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about the bears as well. Just the sort of. Yeah, the different species. So obviously, like grizzly bears versus black bears. Like what? The sort of different techniques you see them use. That'd be really cool to hear.
[00:48:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question, Philip. And there, there really is a substantial difference between the two species.
Basically, grizzly bears, it's, it's, it's sort of what you'd expect. They, they know that they are bigger and that they are heavier and they can use a lot of brute force.
And their preferred method for, for trying to get into a canister is the CPR method is what we call it. And they, they take both paws and they, they essentially pump on the canister and they use that big shoulder muscle on their backs to exert as much force as they can in a repetitive motion. On products, it's difficult to calculate exactly how much force is being applied for a variety of reasons, but we know that it's well over a thousand pounds of force that these bears are putting into the canister. Black bears, on the other hand, we almost never see them doing this. They are much more analytical. I would say we've even seen some black bears that are some of the most intelligent black bears. They'll come up to it. They'll analyze it from, from all sides. They'll even almost kind of tap on it and find the spot that's the very, the very most thin. And then wherever the plastic is the thinnest or what they perceive to be a weak point might not actually be a weak point, but what the bear perceives to be a weak point, that's where they'll focus and they'll lock in and chew or claw on that spot as much as possible.
So, so it's, it's very different from kind of the brute force that you see from the grizzly bears. You know, the black bears also especially like juvenile bears, juvenile black bears tend to have quite a bit sharper teeth and they'll, you know, they'll really munch and occasionally, especially on our current line of bear canisters, you know, with a really sharp juvenile bear, you'll see kind of tiny pin prick holes almost in the lid where they're, they're not tearing the can open by means they're not getting any food or scented items, but they are, you know, putting, putting a tooth into it. Whereas the grizzly bears tend to have these, you know, slightly larger, slightly duller teeth that, you know, they mar it but they don't, you know, they're not really getting, getting a grip on it. So often we see them resulting to things that are sometimes honestly a bit comical to watch or to take a photo of. And you will see them just kind of tossing it up into the air, you know, and they can't really get a grip on it. But they'll seem to kind of, you know, sit on their, on their hind legs and take two paws and kind of toss it up and occasionally they'll kind of catch it and it'll waft up a few feet. And if you catch a still image, it perhaps looks like they're using, you know, the Force in Star wars or telekinesis or something. And it, and often they have the funniest expressions on their faces but that behavior really is no match for the canister. So we always kind of chuckle when we see them trying that.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really funny. Like you've actually, it comes to mind, I know it's a different species of bear, but I've seen sun bears that when they're opening coconuts, you know, it just, they'll, some of them, you know, they get right in there, they get right in there with their claws and their teeth and everything. And I've seen other ones, they'll pick it up and just throw it down on the ground and that's amazing. Open and then they get, you know, the juices inside and everything.
[00:51:30] Speaker C: Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. Not to, not to be underestimated, you know. I mean like what, how incredible to, you know, to evolve, to understand.
All right, here's, here's how you get into the coconut.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
I wanted to mention that the bear vault website which you said people can visit. I Mean, there's a lot of great educational material and advice on bears and backpacking on there as well. There was one thing that caught my eye was this stunning piece of artwork called A Tale of Two Bears, where.
[00:51:58] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah, like, Deal, the journey of one bear was exposed to proper food storage, and the other that's not. And it was very memorable. And I was just. I wanted to ask a little bit about that.
[00:52:09] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. That project, a couple years old now, but we worked with a local artist named Madeline Mathis. And essentially we wanted to conceptualize the idea of what happens to a bear that accesses human food versus the bear that doesn't access human food.
And you know, that that can be hard to sum up because it doesn't necessarily happen instantly. It's not like a bear eats a Snickers bar and boom, that bear is dead. You know, there's a lot that happens in between, you know, step A and step Z. And we wanted to approach that in a way that was artistically beautiful, educational, and also approachable. And so we had these posters made up through this artwork that really tells the story of two bears, bear ash and bear arbor side by side over a period of time. And one bear encounters bear resistant food containers. And really, that bear's light. You know, that bear story is pretty simple and straightforward. It keeps on living a healthy, natural life. It has cubs.
It does all the things that a healthy bear should do. And the people that see that bear in the backcountry have positive, positive experiences. And it's memorable for the right reasons.
In parallel, on the other side, in the other column, you have a bear that experiences human irresponsibility and it gets into, you know, some food just out of curiosity, Not. Not necessarily food condition. But, you know, we all know that, that, that is. That is part of the nature of bears is that they are curious about their environments. New scents, new.
And that. That. That exposes the bear to human food, and the bear realizes that those are easy calories. The bear comes back again and again, and it becomes more bold. And ultimately, that bear is removed from the landscape. And there's a beautiful piece of art kind of showing a culvert trap where the bear is. Is going in, and the land managers are. Are removing it from the landscape. But the last piece in the art in that column is. Is not just that the bear is gone, but that the landscape really has changed and that people have a new fear of bears there. And the other bears have learned, you know, perhaps. Perhaps the progeny of this bear, but other Bears are now seeking human food and the forest is different. And there's really been an expanding and spiraling effect from one act of human irresponsibility.
[00:54:52] Speaker B: Yeah, it really succinctly lays out all the points that you made, you made earlier. And I really encourage people to check it out. Like, I really liked it.
[00:54:59] Speaker C: Yeah, please do.
We, we'd be happy to send some of those up to the, to the Vince Shooty Center. They're, they're really fun.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: If you're happy to send a couple. Yeah, we'd happily have them.
[00:55:08] Speaker C: Happy to. Yeah, I'll send a, send a couple up in the digital file. That'd be a lot of fun.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: Oh, thank you very much.
So, yeah, I suppose what's the kind of one takeaway you'd want listeners to remember? I mean, aside from getting themselves a bare bolt canister, what would you like people to take away from this?
[00:55:25] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question, Philip, and I appreciate you just kind of taking the opportunity to wrap it all up. And I think I would honestly bring it back to that poster and think about things from a proactive lens versus a reactive lens. The backcountry is such a wonderful resource and it's amazing that we have this, you know, especially in the United States, we have these amazing landscapes that, that are shared. You know, they're public lands and, and, but that means it's all of ours. And we all have a responsibility to be stewards of the wildlife that call those places home.
Bears are, you know, some, some biologists define them as keystone species, some, some don't define them as keystone species, but they're at the top of, of the food chain generally in the.
And they are so key. They spread seeds.
We really rely on bears for the forest being the way it is and the places we love to recreate.
One of the big reasons the way they are is because of the animals that call it home.
And as humans, we have far more of an impact than we might think. Our trip into the backcountry might only be for a few days, but those bears are going to live there for 20 some years, maybe more, maybe less. But our couple days in the backcountry can fundamentally shape the course of a bear's life. And there's a lot we can do. There's a lot of choices we can make, not just around food storage, but also how we travel, how we camp.
That all comes back to respecting the wildlife that calls that home. And I would encourage people listening to not take that lightly. It's not a message of fear. It's not a message to be scared of bears, but rather a message of, of joy that how wonderful it is that we get to share this landscape. So let's do our part to protect it. And food storage is, is a big part of that.
[00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I couldn't put it better myself. It's like you say, I mean, the, the biodiversity and the, the landscape and the, the animals and wildlife that live in it, they're the reason you go. So it's like if they're not there, it's, it makes it a much sadder place.
[00:57:48] Speaker C: Exactly. Philip.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:51] Speaker B: Thanks again to Grant and I.
[00:57:53] Speaker A: Do hope listeners check out the bearvault catalogue and site and it would be.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Great to hear if anyone has their own experience using bearvault as well.
[00:58:00] Speaker A: So do get in touch if you have Next time, I wanted to do an episode on the other North American bear species, polar bears, and I'm going to use a fantastic book as a springboard for that, namely Bearless Story by Elsa Poulsen.
[00:58:17] Speaker B: So you'll hear more about polar bears.
[00:58:19] Speaker A: And Elsa next episode. Thank you for listening and bye for now.
The Bear Den the American Bear association podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubley. The music was composed by React Music.
Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Hauserman, Bill Lee, Clarie Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka, Ross Coyer and Angie Page.
You can find out more about the American bear
[email protected] you can find Ventruti Wildlife Sanctuary on Facebook and Instagram. You can ask questions and submit comments about the podcast to peace. Wmericanbear.org the ABA is a special circumstance. We do not condone feeding wild animals. If you enjoy this podcast, help support the ABA either by donating, becoming an ABA member, symbolically adopting a bear, or come visit the sanctuary during the season and say hello.
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