[00:00:00] Speaker A: Mr. And Mrs. Brown first met Paddington on a railway platform. In fact, that was how he came to have such an unusual name for a bear. For Paddington was the name of the station.
The Browns were there to meet their daughter Judy, who was coming home from school for the holidays.
It was a warm summer day and the station was crowded with people on their way to the seaside.
Trains were humming, loudspeakers blaring, porters rushing about shouting at one another. And altogether there was so much noise that Mr. Brown, who saw him first, had to tell his wife several times before she understood. A bear on Paddington station. Mrs. Brown looked at her husband in amazement.
Don't be silly, Henry. There can't be. Mr. Brown adjusted his glasses. But there is, he insisted. I distinctly saw it over there near the bicycle rack. It was wearing a funny kind of hat.
Without waiting for a reply, he caught hold of his wife's arm and pushed her through the crowd, reaching round a trolley laden with chocolate and cups of tea, past a bookstall and through a gap in a pile of suitcases towards the lost property office. There you are, he announced triumphantly, pointing towards a dark corner. I told you so. Mrs. Brown followed the direction of his arm and dimly made out a small furry object in the shadows. It seemed to be sitting on some kind of suitcase, and around its neck there was a label with some writing on it. The suitcase was old and battered, and on the side, in large letters, were the words wanted on voyage. Mrs. Brown clutched at her husband. Why, Henry. She exclaimed. I believe you are right. After all, it is a bear. She peered at it more closely. It seemed a very unusual kind of bear. It was brown in colour, a rather dirty brown, and was wearing a most odd looking hat with a wide brim, just as Mr. Brown had said. From beneath the brim, two large round eyes stared back at her.
Seeing that something was expected of it, the bear stood up and politely raised its hat, revealing two black ears. Good afternoon, it said in a small, clear voice. Uh, Good afternoon, replied Mr. Brown doubtfully. There was a moment of silence.
The bear looked at them inquiringly. Can I help you? Mr. Brown looked rather embarrassed.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Well, no, as a matter of fact,
[00:02:10] Speaker A: we were wondering if we could help you. Mrs. Brown bent down.
You're a very small bear, she said. The bear puffed out its chest. I'm a very rare sort of bear, he replied importantly. There aren't many of us left where I come from. And where is that? Asked Mrs. Brown.
The bear looked around carefully before replying. Dark as Peru. I'm not really supposed to be here at all. I'm a stowaway.
A stowaway? Mr. Brown lowered his voice and looked anxiously over his shoulder. He almost expected to see a policeman standing behind him with a notebook and pencil, taking everything down.
Yes, said the bear. I emigrated, you know. A sad expression came into its eyes. I used to live with my Aunt Lucy in Peru, but she had to go into a home for retired bears.
You don't mean to say you've come all the way from South America by yourself? Exclaimed Mrs. Brown. The bear nodded. Aunt Lucy always said she wanted me to emigrate when I was old enough. That's why she taught me to speak English.
But whatever did you do for food? Asked Mr. Brown. You must be starving.
Bending down, the bear unlocked the suitcase with a small key, which it also had round his neck, and brought out an almost empty glass jar. I ate marmalade, he said rather proudly. Bears like marmalade. And I lived in a lifeboat.
But what are you going to do now? Said Mr. Brown. You can't just sit here on Paddington Station waiting to see what happens.
Oh, I shall be all right, I expect.
The bear bent down to do up its case again. As he did so, Mrs. Brown caught a glimpse of the writing on the label. It said simply, please look after this bear.
Thank you.
There is a place in the remote Northwoods of Minnesota, North America. It's located near the town of orr, population approximately 300.
Outside of this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side.
It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vinscuti Wildlife Sanctuary, run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short.
The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife through education, observation and experience.
I'm your host, Philip Stubley, and welcome to the Bear Den.
Hello and welcome to the Bear Den, where we talk about bears, wildlife, and those making a difference for them. So that reading was from the opening of the famous children's book by Michael Bond, A Bear Called Paddington.
And you've probably worked out we are back in the Americas, but journeying down south to learn about the Andean bear, AKA Spectacle Bear, the inspiration for Paddington.
Today I am joined by Santiago Molina, Andean bear expert and coordinator of the Research, Education and Communication Committee of the Chocho Andino Biosphere Reserve, speaking to us from Ecuador. And he is truly someone who is looking after bears.
Longtime listeners may know I have an affinity for Ecuador as it's where my first experience working with animals started way back in 2011. It was at a wild animal rescue centre called Sasha Yaku, located in the Amazon Basin.
It was completely outside of anything I had experienced before. I remember getting a bus from Quito, the capital of Ecuador, which took about
[00:05:30] Speaker B: five to six hours along all these
[00:05:32] Speaker A: winding roads to a local town and I was told someone would meet me
[00:05:38] Speaker B: there and they'd know who I was, as I'd be the only white person.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: Sure enough, I got there and a teenage boy, Adrian, met me.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: He'd just been about to leave as the bus was late, so I don't
[00:05:48] Speaker A: know what I would have done Then
[00:05:49] Speaker B: it was then another couple of hours
[00:05:50] Speaker A: in the back of a truck to the local town, Triumpho. Even then, it was a bit of a trek to actually get to the sanctuary itself.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: Lovely place, doing great work, run by this local family, the Alvarez family. And by this point I was quite
[00:06:04] Speaker A: tired, but the guy. But the local guys at the town heard I was from the UK and insisted I join them in a game of football.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: So, I mean, I'm not big on
[00:06:13] Speaker A: football, but politeness and language barrier dictated I take part. But those weeks of living in the
[00:06:20] Speaker B: jungle was such an experience.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Helping look after rescued capuchins, macaws, kinkajous,
[00:06:26] Speaker B: kuatis, peccaries, tortoises, red ti Ti monkeys and such. An array of wildlife right there. And that's not counting the ones that
[00:06:37] Speaker A: we saw in the jungle itself, all around us.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: It was eye opening and it set
[00:06:41] Speaker A: me on my path towards bears. So I'm sure you'll enjoy our talk.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Santiago is enthusiastic and effusive and our
[00:06:49] Speaker A: conversation bounces from topic to topic.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: We go from his journey studying finance
[00:06:53] Speaker A: to becoming a wildlife biologist. We talk about indigenous perceptions of Andean bears, the challenges of bear conservation in Ecuador, his educational programs and his work establishing a wildlife corridor for bears.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: So there's a lot going on there.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: And we also talk about what he calls his debt to Andean bears.
So onto the cloud forest.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: So, yeah. Hi, Santiago. It's my great pleasure to have you here today. First of all, could you just kind of introduce yourself and tell us where you're speaking to us from?
[00:07:27] Speaker C: Hi. Hi, Philip.
It's a pleasure. My name is Santiago Molina.
I'm from Ecuador.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: Oh, fab. And you're speaking to us from Ecuador
[00:07:36] Speaker A: right now, Aren't you from Quito?
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So what's your story? So where did you grow up and what sparked your passion for wildlife?
[00:07:45] Speaker C: Well, I was born and raised in Quito in the capital of Ecuador.
And well, now that I remember, I go back in years, I was really into nature, playing with insects, playing with frogs, even being a, a city kid. Right.
But no one in my family was like a really into nature or, or a biologist. When I went to college, my first, my first degree was in finance engineer.
And I was involved, I was working for, for, for the family. I was involved in a business family. In a family business, sorry. And related to the agro industry, the cultivation of hearts of palm.
No. And well, it's, I don't know, it was destiny, but I was, I witnessed how forests were cut because of this crop, right? A crop that we don't even eat it.
No. So. And because of that, that was my first interaction with, with forest and wildlife.
No, And I didn't know when I, when I saw my first toucan, I, I remember that was the, I resembled the toucan that was in the, in the, in the, in the conflicts? No, in those, for breakfast.
So.
But then something changed in that time some with that experience with a forest.
And I fall in love with bromeliads, you know bromeliads? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the favorite food for bears and pineapple is a bromeliad. So probably most of us, we have been eating barefoot already.
So yeah, fall in love with promilias. I changed. I quit my job and I went back to school when I was 27 to study ecology. Really?
Really. I was falling in love with nature.
No. And through bromeliads I think I, I end to. With bears. No, there's more, more story between. But, but I believe this is what we want to hear.
And that's how my first experience was.
Because of this background, finance background, I had the opportunities to do that same thing, but in nature. So I start, I manage, I manage lodges, jungle lodges, scientific stations that were in the jungle. And then I, I, I end in this cloud forest reserve, not, not far away from Quito. So I managed this reserve and that's where I had my first experience with, with a bear.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Oh yeah, I'd like to hear about that. Like when the first time you saw an Andean bear, how did you feel?
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Well, was in fact was crazy because at that time, in fact, when I was at school, I have a friend and I have a professor that they were the specialist on Andean bears, but they never have seen one.
Right.
There was just really few people that had the luck to have a view of a bear probably at a really long distance, but they were Already on that exclusive group of being able to see in a bear.
So when I was working in this reserve in the cloud forest, a new behavior was recorded. No. These bears feeding on the top of the trees. Feeding on a little avocado called.
No.
It was so just in a. Just suddenly I saw nine bears.
No. In a period of one month of these bears.
And was amazing because we were not looking the bears on the ground. We were looking the bears on the top of trees at 20, 25 meters. So it was spectacular. This feeding behavior was never recorded, so was unique.
And then I fall in love with bears.
This area, this is a private reserve, but the surroundings is a human dominated landscape.
So I was wondering what happened with these bears moving away from here after they feed on the fruit.
So that's when I went back to school to study my master's on bears.
That was in 2010. And since then I have been doing research and a lot of things related to bears.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Oh, it sounds awesome.
I really like how you obviously went back as a mature student, so to speak. And you can. Anyone can do it like you know, at any age. I like that.
[00:12:40] Speaker C: That's what I like about the story. You know, I want to. To show because you know, even when I was studying when you are 18 years old and you had to decide what are you going to do the rest of your life?
I didn't knew it. No. So. So. And I know that today there's a lot of young people that they don't know what to do when they are and they had to decide this kind of is a social thing. No. That force you to decide what are you going to do? No. And sometimes you don't know what. What you still have to. You are just ending school, right. And you have to experience no one really to find your. What you love and what are you. What are your skills and what are you going to be good for? No. And that takes times there are just few people that they know when they're five years old and they have the support of their family. No. But most of us we had to to. To find it on. On the way. And sometimes taking mistakes, right?
Well, I don't think that doing the finance was a mistake because in some way I.
You know, to even. Even study or save a. A little ant, you need money.
No. And that's. Well, usually the biologists have bad reputation on dealing with money.
So that was a.
At the end that was a good skill for. For me not to. To know how to. To do this. Managing resources.
No. And Then well, but yeah, but bears are my life. So yeah, I have adept with them know that I hope on this life I can, I can made it.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Well, it's like you say, I mean I wasn't. I was in my mid-20s when I first actually. Well, as I said to you prior to recording, I. I visited Ecuador and volunteered at an animal sanctuary. And that's, that's when I sort of start on my path to. Towards also bears. So it can happen at any point, I think.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:14:35] Speaker C: No people that happen when they are in the 50s. No. And so you. It's never late to, to follow your dreams, right?
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:43] Speaker C: Not very easy. Always easy.
No, but well that's is. That's when you are going to, to be.
How you say, your, your soul is going to be measured? No. How intense is your, your. Your wheels to. To follow your dreams? No ma'. Am.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: So I think before we get into your research and everything, I'd be nice to talk a little bit about Andean bears specifically just to get a bit of a description about. About them because obviously they're, they're the only bears in South America and I guess a lot of people are aware of bears in South America due to Paddington Bear, you know, the book in the movie from deepest darkest Peru. Yeah. Can you give us a bit of a description maybe about Andean bears? And obviously they're also known as spectacled bears. Why? That is like their biology, their life cycle maybe and their range.
[00:15:37] Speaker C: Well, you know, both names are wrong
[00:15:42] Speaker B: straight.
[00:15:43] Speaker C: Because not only, only 25, 30% of bears have really spectacles.
No, we have 30% of them. They're completely black.
Right. But most of them, they have some marks, some signs, some like a, like a lightning, like a circle, but not really complete spectacles. But if you go to the, to the scientific name. No. Trimactus or Natus ornatus.
No, that's, that's the name or notus means adorn.
No. So this, the really name is the bear with that is adorned. They have so much.
Yeah, yeah. And in the last day because of, because of bears and my research, I have been lucky to be involved with, with the bear people all around and to participate in these international conferences.
And last, last one was in Canada and the organizers told me they, they proposed me to present a presentation about cultural and religious perceptions about Andean bears in South America.
They will pay me everything and I say okay, well, I don't know anything about it. Right. A little bit. No, that was not my strength. No, that the natural history of bears. But so I had to contact my old school colleagues all over in South America and was amazing because what I learned about bears, there's not much about them. No, there is just few. But what I learned was incredible. And there are two moments on Andean bears, let's say in general, and we go a little bit away of what were the origins, because there are still some hypothesis if they come from the north or they were already in the caverns, in caverns in the south.
Because this is the last representative of this existent subfamily of the Tregmartinae sub family with other short snout bears.
So they said that one theory is that they come, they came from.
In this big migration from north to south. No.
And we have their ancestor is the spectacle bear of the Florida. Florida spectacle bear, right.
But anyway, going back to the history, there were two moments and that moment was defined by the conquest, the Spaniard conquest, because before that the, the indigenous people that were living in this land, they have a really, really close relation with nature and wildlife. They were even their gods. No. And the bear, according to some of the myths in different parts of different countries, the bear was the first human that was made.
No, but it was too hairy.
Right, so the gods. No, they said, okay, so it was. We have a little mistake, but we're going to leave him. No, we're going to try again and create another human.
No, but he's going to be the link between the nature and the humans. He's going to be the big brother, right, so then they create us. No, that the humans. So he was always linked and that was in general, that is how nature was. The mountains, the forest, the sun, all of them were gods.
Then the conquest came. And you know, when the Spanish saw that very stretched link with nature, said well, we have to break that.
We have to bring fear to people. So they have to be feared of the animals, of the forest, of the mountains, of everything.
And that's how it's going to be more easy for us to, to get into it. And that's what happened. No, and now we have for example, stories like John the Bear. I don't know if you heard about that.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: I'm not sure. No, no. Who's John the Bear?
[00:20:04] Speaker C: Those are the stories that came from, from Spain. Really.
And now they are spread in all around, especially in the highlands where John the Bear is a, is a, is a, a product of, of a bear and a human. The woman know that this woman was raised, was cut, was kidnapped by the bear and raped.
Right?
So, so now in this. In some parts of this, in these countries, there is this story that is spread and they said that is because, you know, usually the woman, that's the word that were in charge of taking the animals, sheep, goats, to graze.
Right.
And that's where they were very isolated areas, like the highlands of Ecuador, you know, it's very isolated and that's where these people go with the animals. So they were.
Yeah. Captured by sometimes members of the same village or even worse, maybe members of the same family.
No. And they were raped.
Right. So in that time they didn't have a voice.
No. And for them, for them, they were kind of impossible to blame someone of the family and to tell they was that. So they decided to use the bear.
So you have to. What was the bear?
Right. So there are stories that they're still not happening today. I, we always do in a perception study in one of the villages not, not away from Quito.
And there is these people that live in the highlands. We are called the chagras, which are the Andean cowboys.
Right. They are working with, with cattle mainly. So we were doing there. There's not that activity anymore with the young, young people. No, it's just the elders practically is gone, but they are still doing the things with the cattle. And that's when we were talking because, you know, there's a big threat with bears and cattle. So we were talking about, about bears in this community and they told me, ah, yeah, but you know, I don't know where the bears came from.
I think it's better that you take all of them outside of here. No. Because now even the women are afraid of going to graze the animals, but because the bears are going to, to kidnap them.
So. Yeah, yeah.
It's crazy knowing what that have changed, know the, the, the relation, you see, with what was in the past and now what it is so that we have to come to confront that today.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: And that was all like the conquistadors from Spain came over and they kind of divide and conquer almost, I suppose, nature and humans.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Still a lot of things. No, they brought cattle. No, they brought dogs.
Right. And there is a famous and famous painting that happens 300 years ago of the conquistadores on horses with spears and dogs, hunting a dog. A bear.
Right.
And.
And I also went back to the story of Paddington, you know, and, and it was interesting now because, yeah, Paddington was from the, from Peru, but he was transport from Chile on a boat.
No.
So, yeah, well, that's a little bit about that thing. And now, well, we know today through research, we know that the bears.
Well, now they are present in five countries.
No. Starting from Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Bolivia and Peru.
There was a population in North Argentina that is. Was kind of extreme from them. No, there are some individuals, they cross the border and there's a, A big debate is still happening today. Even know if they were bears or not there. But I mean, they were there and there's the, There's a big culture about bears in the communities of the border with Bolivia.
We know now most of the time we know about bears from the highlands.
No. Because they were more easy to, to study, to spot because there are no trees. Right.
But then what happened to me was in the forest. No. And in the forest they were nothing about the birds from the forest. And today we know that they are. They're different. No, they move different, they eat different.
I guess they communicate different as well. Right. And they have different interactions with the other organisms that live with them. Know, talking about wildlife and talking about people. There's, there's different type of people that they live in. In the, in, in the bear range.
No.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're saying like the bears in the highlands act completely differently to the ones in the forest?
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I believe they, you, you know, they, they move different.
And also I, When I started working with bears, I was the, the, the defender of the vegetarian bear bears.
Right. Because in all the literature that you were reading, they were saying, yeah, bears, they feed on bromelias and most of their food because these are, they're from natural resources. Are from. Basically.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah, they're mostly like the traditionally mostly vegetarian is what they're.
[00:25:52] Speaker C: Yeah. But then I was going into the villages and the people were saying the bears, they were killing my, my, my, my cattle. My things say what.
You are a little bit crazy. A lot of imagination or, or too much moonshine, because that's an area where they produce moonshine.
But that was constant, constant all the time.
And say, what's going on here? No, he was not supposed to be vegetarian. But then you realize, well, when you study the birds in the forest, they got plenty of food. No, they eat bromeliads.
They eat 15, 20 different type of wild fruits.
They eat hearts of palm. No. And also they eat sugar cane and guava and another corn. Right. But in the highlands, they don't have too much food.
No, they have the bromeliads that they grow these special bromelias. I don't know if you know them. Puya is the genus.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:26:54] Speaker C: Have to look it up they grow like a little agave.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: I remember having something called chirimoya. I don't know if that's.
[00:27:03] Speaker C: No, that's a fruit.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: That's just a fruit.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:27:06] Speaker C: Related.
Yeah. But if you have seen a. A pineapple plant.
When you know how the shape of the bromela. That is a rosette shape. And they grow not all the. In everywhere in the highlands, just in specific places.
I start studying in the. In the. In the cloud forest, but also in the highlands.
And I found these differences between them.
Yeah. But in those areas like the Amazon basin, which will be known as the lowlands in both, in. Both on the east and on the west, those are areas that bears are not present.
No. Birds are more the home range. When in some countries can be even 300 meters above. Above sea level. Here in Ecuador, I think our lowest recording is around 800, 900. Like in Little deep valleys, but not in the lowlands. Right.
So they are more. More in the foothills and in the highlands of Ecuador.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: That's right. They live in the cloud forest.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: Right. The cloud forests are the foothills of the Andes. No, on both sides, on the east and on the west. Because in Ecuador we have two mountain ranges of the Andes is divided in two. Right.
So probably a thousand years ago, probably there were still a crossing between the two mountain ranges.
Right, Right. Not anymore. Not anymore, at least.
Yeah. Maybe 500 years ago. Because with the conquest that they were already indigenous living on those areas.
There was a lot of farming already.
And today that's called the avenue of the volcanoes. No, the interandient valleys which. Which you have major cities. So it's quite impossible for a big mammal to go from one side to the other side.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: Right, I see. What's the sort of difference between the cloud forest to the Amazon rainforest?
[00:29:14] Speaker C: Yeah, Both will be considered rainforests.
A cloud forest would be a type of rainforest.
We have a cloud forest in Galapagos islands.
The main characteristic is because of the presence of mountains, clouds get condensated humidity.
No. So there's a lot of bromeliads, epiphytes, burns, rain, humidity. That's the characteristic of that cloud forest at that.
Like I was saying the Lapa was. That happened because we have. There are volcanoes in Galapagos. But mainly you will find cloud forests along the whole country. Not from north to south, no, in the foothills of the. Of the Andes.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Oh, thank you.
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Thank you.
It's a terrain that, you know, there's a. Is just few left. The. The ones that is left is because it's very steep and people have not been able to farm right now. They are. They are protected.
And there's a lot of endemism. No. In that area. No, because of this.
This terrain and influenced by the. By the mountains.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: I see.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Oh, thank you for the clarification.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: I also wondered, when you did mention the differences between sort of bears and the highlands in the forest and the sort of way they communicate and the sounds, what are the sort of vocalizations that Andean bears make?
[00:30:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I have been lucky to hear them. They don't vocalize that much. Well, you don't see them.
So.
So they don't vocalize. My. But it's not that.
No. That you expect from a bear. No, more like.
Like a.
No, they look like.
We call it in Spanish, which. Is that what cats made?
[00:31:11] Speaker B: I was just about to say it's very much like a cat pair. That's what it sounded like.
[00:31:15] Speaker C: Always very interesting how they. How they communicate.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: That's cool. And like most other bears, fortunately, they are classified as vulnerable. And I just kind of wanted to get your take on what the main threats to the species survival is.
[00:31:33] Speaker C: Well, not in Ecuador. In Ecuador is in danger.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Oh, they're endangered. Oh, the specific population in Ecuador is classed as endangered. But as a whole, regional.
[00:31:42] Speaker C: Regional vulnerable. But in Ecuador in danger. We. The last estimation was like 20 years ago, 2,000 individuals is what they estimated.
And. Well, it really is in danger because in the last 50 years the population has declined at least 50%.
Right.
So, yeah, we have populations that are.
We have in our area, defined core areas to try to protect some populations. But there are other populations that are in some way isolated and they are struggling and they will struggle in the future.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: Oh, no.
And just. So, like, what if the Andean bears did disappear? I mean, what's their role in the ecosystem? How do they contribute?
[00:32:30] Speaker C: They disappear. I think we will disappear first.
Right. They are. They are known as the great architects of the forest.
No, they're. They are an umbrella species, a landscape species. So they need each bear.
We did. We did a density. A density estimation.
I think it's the only so far with camera traps. Capture. We capture is special explicit models and we found the density that each bed needs around 1400 hectares a year of good habitat where they can find resources because they migrate and they are all the time moving. They don't hibernate. So they're active all year round and they need a lot of food. They're bears.
So that's when I wonder when I start studying bears in the highlands and I saw these Big bears, Right. Because usually here people think that and bears are really, really cute. Small bears.
Right. I have seen bears of 2. 2 meters, 20.
No, 170 kilo. No.
So big, big, big animals.
And then. Well, to now to know. We know that for like a.
Not even talk a cow, but a big bull or cattle. No, it's easy for them. It's easy prey for bears.
Because when I was looking for bears in the hide and see, well they, these bears, they survive only. Only eating puya. These plants know that they are. They're similar as you eating an artichoke. No. So it's not really the whole plant. You, you have to go and break them and go for the heart.
So see a big bear like that, how they can survive with those little plants? No, but.
Well, maybe there's something in the plant, but they must eat something else. Right? So that was the, that was the question. And then when we pass from the myth to the real situation and yeah, bears, especially in the highlands, because we're more easy for them. They used to hunt, they used to hunt deer and they used to hunt tapir.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Oh, tapia. I mean they're quite big animals.
[00:34:56] Speaker C: Oh, they're big. We have two species here in Ecuador and the one that is the Andean tapir, which is another endangered species, is smaller but still big. Big as, as a bear. Right. But the ones in the highlands. Sorry, the ones in the lowlands, which is the lowland tapir, that is big as a cow.
Right. And are more furious than a cow because it's a native animal.
Right?
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:27] Speaker C: But we just found. Because I last, last year I've been conducting a project in the south of Ecuador which is a little bit different.
Yeah. Especially in a place called the Cordillera del Condor.
No, is a different mountain range that was even. Is even older than the Andes.
Right. And we found that the bears over there, they have, we found a, A different, A different genetic structure.
No.
It has been published, but it has also has been refuted.
Both others.
Yeah. But you know, I, I don't, I don't waste my time on that.
But there's something else with those bears in the south because they were, the conditions were different and they, and they were interacting with lowland tapered where they used to hunt them as well.
Right. Now we know.
So for a calf or a, or a bull that usually they are like free. No free range animals. Nobody's taking care of them. I mean they have an owner. Right. But they take the, the, the practices are really poor in terms of ranching.
No. So these cattle are easy prey.
No. And they live in the. They put them on the very nose on these foothills. So it's very easy for bears to.
To. To. They decide, okay, today a tapir, a deer, or.
Or the Carol of Don Mosquera, which is kind of abandoned.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, they've got the choice, haven't they?
Wow. It's fascinating.
It's like. Yeah, I never, I never even heard of this sort of behavior from Pandy and bears.
[00:37:15] Speaker C: Ten years in the back, he was completely made a different. A different speech for me, you know, was more romantic.
The years show you that it's not like that.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Oh, but I mean, it's. It's still fascinating.
So. Yeah. So you've talked about your. Your research and what you've been up to, and I wanted to talk about. I know this is probably going back a little bit now, but. Yeah. Because I know your work centered on helping established an Andean bear corridor. You ended up having to work with the Quito government, I think, for that. I mean, that's pretty cool. I mean, but like, what were the challenges of getting that done? How long did that take?
Was there a bit of opposition to it?
[00:37:57] Speaker C: Yeah, that was something with a different government. You know, governments change with time and then you have people that support and others that they don't support.
So.
Yeah, well, it's very, very difficult, especially in a country as Ecuador. No small country.
The economy is not doing well.
We have really, really bad leaders.
Right. So that nature and environment in Ecuador is not. Not in the top list. Yeah, maybe Galapagos is in the top list. And that's why I would say I hate Galapagos. I don't really hate Galapagos. I really hate the thing that they have all the resources.
We're doing research there. But here in Ecuador, in main. In the main continent, you don't have any more field biologists.
No. Today there are few people that really want to study bears or to study jaguars or to study pumas because there's no money. It's hard. It's a hard environment.
You have to walk.
Right.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Plenty of exercise.
[00:39:14] Speaker C: Well, I love it.
Right. That's my thing. Right. But not for everyone today.
So there's still lack research.
As I told you, the last estimation that we did was 20 years ago.
So in that sense, there is a situation also between the research. There is always egos and these things and nothing new in our human conditions.
So it has been very difficult to find support.
No, the. The population. I have been studying bears in different parts of Ecuador.
But mainly I studied out the birds that they live in the.
In the west of Quito. No, that when I was doing my study, that area was called the northwest of Quito. Right.
That's an area that lacks the present of protected areas and was an area that the vision was more to produce. To produce, to provide goods to the city because it was very, very close. Right now today we know that what is left that is maybe that 20, 20, 20% of that area is one of the most diversest places in the world is now. So, so in 2019 there was a. A declaration of. Of a biosphere reserve.
Called the Biosphere Reserve, right? Yeah.
[00:40:56] Speaker B: And that's a UNESCO site now as a UNESCO site.
[00:41:00] Speaker C: So where the lee where the bears live is a. Is a transition between this bio region known as the Choco, which are the lowlands of the Western Andes that we share with Colombia and Panama knows that this is known as these hotspots or wildlife refuges of the Pleistocene. I don't know if you heard about that theory.
So in Ecuador we have these kind of these two hot spots, which is the Choco and the Tropical Andes, right. In both sides, but especially on the west, you have the transition, the connection between the Choco and the Tropical Andes together.
And in that transition, in that where they connect, that's where bears live.
So today bears have become. Because even the logo of the reserve of the virus reserve is a. Is a bear.
So now bears are in the.
They're everywhere. In the tip of the tongue of everybody is the logo communities of the. Of the group of. Of young people of the Choco, of. Of everybody. Right?
But three months ago they killed a bear over there.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: Oh no. Was that, was that a bear? Was it involved in some sort of conflict with humans or.
[00:42:22] Speaker C: Yeah, it's always, always that's. It's very tricky how, how these, these reports came to the light because there is no, you know, the intervention has to be very fast and articulated, but usually is not.
So a farmer found a. A dead cow that has been. Was missing since last month that he has been looking for it because they were somewhere. Right. And when they found it, they found the carcass and a bear feeding it. Oh, this bear killed the cow.
Right. So there is no foreign c.
No, a foreign. That's something I have been kind of really keen on trying to. To develop. Is a. Is a foreign C protocol how to check this.
These conflicts? Because we know bears kill cattle. That's not a question today.
But the old bears kill cattle. There Will be no cattle or no bears. Right. It's not all of the individuals, but if you have dead animals. But that's what usually happened. You have cows, they died every day because of 10 different reasons. Right. And what they're not because of bears.
Right. And most of the time what, what bears found is they smell food, a carcass and they say, wow, thank you. Yeah.
[00:43:44] Speaker B: Well, they are, they are opportunistic. Right? Yeah. If there's an easy meal, they'll eat it.
[00:43:49] Speaker C: Exactly. So that's, that's the real problem. What is bears facing today? No, and also, and also you have to add a new threat, right. Which is tourism.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: A lot of like people want to see bears, I'm guessing.
[00:44:05] Speaker C: So Ecuador is the best country to see Andean bears today.
No. And you have thousands of followers, photographers, right. That they want to see on your. On their checklist. There is that and the bear, of course.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: I mean, is there a way of safely observing them in the wild or in the.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: That's what I have been doing in the last 10 years.
Probably I was one of the first ones that started doing that.
But now there you have a lot of companies, locals and foreign and guides that they offer you this activity. And it's very easy to cross the red line. That's the question that all of us have know today.
No. And. And money is the thing. No. So the thing is when you cross the red line and you get. You interact too close with bears or you feed bears artificially, what is happening?
No. Then yeah, sure, you will have a fabulous picture of a bear.
Probably is in a cover of a popular magazine.
But maybe that bear that you photographed eight years ago, what it was a C. With a mother.
Today, eight years after is a problem bear, right. Probably is in a cage or probably is. Or they're trying to relocate it, trying to find a helicopter. That's what they had to. They did it with one of these bears that was photographed and probably is in a cover of magazines. This bear guarding does. Is fearless to people today.
So is killing have a conflicts because of killing cattle.
So people, the people in the village, they want to kill the bear? No. So I have my colleague because this is in the Northern province from where I am, he was struggling to find a helicopter that. And you know, the Ministry of Environment want a picture of the bear. And together all these situations only took a while. So finally they found a helicopter with a lot of effort, resources and everything. And they took the bear and they move it.
Ecuador is a small country. No, you know, still you have vast areas in protected areas so they move it hundreds of kilometers away and the bear a week after showing them in the same place.
[00:46:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not a surprise you hear about this with black bears in America as well.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Relocation rarely, rarely works.
[00:46:46] Speaker C: So yeah, so yeah, there's a chance to turn around and to take real advantage of this activity and some of the important resources that are generated go for best for fencing, electric fencing, workshops, education, blah, blah, blah. No, but today the money goes to people, to the pockets of people doing conservation.
So. Yeah, I believe you heard this again also.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Yeah, if you would recommend any responsible like you know, or ethical eco tourism for people to visit, I'd be open to that.
[00:47:28] Speaker C: We're discussing this situation. In fact, we're discussing locally and international.
I've been honored these last years to be part of the International Bear Association Council.
Executive council. So by.
Well, most of it I've been learning because I have all these people that have been studying bears for 50 years. No. So. Yeah, but I really love bear people.
No, from all over.
They're very, very keen people and want always to collaborate. So we, we brought the last conference, we brought, we brought this situation about Andean bear viewing.
So we are discussing and what we want is that IBA and the other groups like bsg, the bears specialist group. Oh yeah, Abbott, which is the Andean bear expert team.
Right.
They can suggest to the government of Ecuador to develop a normative and protocols training to people that want to offer this activity.
No.
So we are discussing that today.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh great. No, that sounds right. It's the step in the right direction. Yeah.
[00:48:53] Speaker C: Yeah, let's see.
[00:48:54] Speaker B: Yeah, let's hope. I know, I know that unfortunately you'll always have some unscrupulous individuals who will try to just do. Do what they're going to do regardless.
[00:49:04] Speaker C: But depends on, depends on people. You know, I mean you can have the rules but you need institutions that have to. Yeah, all the rules. But also is a question of that or that of the lodge of the guide of the agency that do. Do the things with, with ethics.
[00:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll be interested to hear how that goes.
[00:49:29] Speaker C: Yeah. Two days ago we saw. We have a really nice experience with a couple of.
From the US to ladies.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: Oh, nice. And that, that was in the, what was it? The, the Choctaw Andino Reserve.
[00:49:43] Speaker C: No, no, no, that's. I mean it's, it's very. It's hard to see bears in the forest.
Right. Only when you have these.
The fruiting season of this avocado in this private surf, you have a good chance to go and see them. Yeah, right. But the only ones that they know when the fruit is going to be ready are the bears. Not even the, the owners of the reserve because now all the weather's patterns are crazy. Right? So.
Yeah, I know and, but in the highlands and I know this, this we call it this, we have a special slang name for this for these places. We call it cuchos.
No, like if you find, you know, a good restaurant that is very small all and even very cheap, but it's like a really good place. You know that one? No, it's not known everywhere. So.
And it's not difficult because you have to find the plants right where the plants are.
Usually bears will be there if there is no disturbed by people.
So there are different places, different spots. Very close to Quito, one hour away.
No, and if you're lucky, just in a day trip, you. You will see a lot of, a lot of nice things, including bears that we have with this, with these ladies. Two days ago, it was fantastic.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: Oh, it's great. Speaking of the avocados, I remember there was a. I think it's a few years ago now. I remember reading about like they talk about the Andean bears gathering in areas to feed on the wild avocados. I think it was in.
I'm going to mangle the name as well. The Maku. Makupuna Cloud forest.
Maki Pukuna. Yeah, that still happens. Like you have a. Like groups of Andian, like individuals will gather in one area or resource share.
[00:51:46] Speaker C: That's where, that's where everything started with me. That's where I went. I went to work managing that reserve in 2008.
And that's where I saw my first bear.
For everybody, not for even, even this behavior, they knew that they were bears. I mean they were bears in the cloud forest always. Right.
But it was an, a colleague, this colleague, this pioneer Andy and bear researcher here in Ecuador that at that time there was no nothing about them. So they were always doing some exercises, new exercises of, for example of translocating bears.
So in this reserve in 2000, no, in 1998, they released the first three best reintroduction of three bears there.
And that was also the first conflict that was reported.
Right. Because these three bears that they were released, they were already already bear. They were imprinted.
Right. That means that they, they already been, they were captive bears. Yeah, they people have them for months and they say, okay, I have a bear. What you would do? So they released the bears there, the one of those bears killed. Killed a cow.
Yeah, there were a lot of problems. They have to capture the bears again.
Yeah, so that was the story about the bears in Maki Bokuna. And yeah, if you were like extremely, extremely happy when you visit that reserve, you were able to see bears in the forest. No, but never, never feeding on these, on these trees. Because this, these trees today.
30 years ago, 30 years ago, there were just few of them. Most of the. Of where the lodge is in the lower part, they were sugarcane crops, no. So the people, they own the reserve, they bought.
So they stopped growing the sugarcane and they left the area to naturally recover.
And that's when this trees, I don't know how many were there.
They were very success on fruit dispersion by different wildlife. Birds. Birds especially toucans, quetzals ones.
Right, so today you have like a wild, wild crop.
No, it's like a 200 hectares of this, of this tree.
No, that dominates. Dominates the forest.
So in 2008 there was. I don't know what happened that year. There was a massive fructification of the trees. And there was a.
This tree is from the LA family, no? And these trees are known to be. Have fruits and had some essences like oils and stuff, Right. That you can made of.
So the thing is that the forest, what the. Was smelling very strong. And if you smell it, well, just imagine bears. Well, yeah, bears came from different parts, right.
And suddenly I remember someone that told me, Santiago, there is a bear, right? On the main trail, 30 minutes away from the office, on the top of a tree, there is a mother with two babies. And he's. There goes what?
And suddenly of seeing nothing, there was a mother with two babies there. And they were not. They were kind of fearless. I mean, they felt safe up there, no, so they were. They didn't run away, you know, so that's how it started.
And every year or every. Every 15, you don't know. There's no pattern when the fruit is there, bears from different places will go there. And you have. You had it.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: They remember and I'm sure it's the same. We have the same individuals coming back because they don't. They won't forget.
[00:55:54] Speaker C: I follow them. I follow them for years.
I was even with. With BBC stuff filming them. This part of a footage that is called the seven seven Wonders.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: Oh, I remember, yeah, I remember when that came out.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: There's part. No, we filmed fifteen bears with a drone on the trees. I mean, the first time that happened, that but again, so there was a. A red line that was crossed. And the thing is that that thing become a. A business today.
So no research, right? Nothing about research either. I haven't been there in a while. Right. These places, it happens everywhere. You know, at the beginning is the researcher that you have the bear. You do the studies, you bring the tv, they make a video. So the place got famous.
So they say, well, well, we don't need more anymore. The researcher, we don't need more research. We have the bears right now.
So that things keep going. It's a business.
No resources goes for, for directly for bears.
Right?
So yeah, it's a shame we change, no, but because, yeah, this area, these bears are in the Choco, in the Viceroy Reserve. And that's, that's the area that we are promoting today to.
So there was a. There was a protected area that was declared after my, my master thesis. That was the scientific base for the declaration of the Andean Bear corridor.
Yeah, yeah. So this is an area of 60,000 hectares, right. Is a municipal protected area.
So it's not part of the national system. From the, from the national government is a municipal area and it's called a corridor. But bears cannot cross.
I mean, the corridor first is not connecting bigger areas today.
Right.
Is an area in the middle has a lot of forest, there are a lot of bears. But bears cannot cross a highway. Bears have to move through farms. Some farmers are bear friendly, some farms are not.
Bears are getting killed today.
No. So the corridor is still struggling, and it's not so now. Since the last years, I've been trying to promote the extension of this corridor north and south.
And if you have a. It's very easy to see on a, on a satellite image. No, you have a protected area here and a protected area over here. And you have a dark, dark green color, no. And it's very easy to find the cord.
No, it's very easy and. But it's all, all of it's private land, right?
But today we have in our constitution a figure that can recognize these corridors.
No? So we are trying to.
We're trying to get recognized this corridor that. I call it a Kotakachi Pichinche Linisa corridor corridor, which are the name of three volcanoes, right? And between them you have this stripe of dark green forest.
Because if you go southern, there's no. No more. You have only patches. This is the biggest portion that is connected where you can find, according to this density estimation that we did.
No, you can find in that area at least or around 250 bears.
Right. Which is the number of bears that you need to have a wild viable population.
No.
So that's our goal.
[01:00:01] Speaker B: Oh, amazing. Yeah I mean, yeah, if there's a, there's any sort of like resources or sort of ways that anyone listening to this would be able to support or find out more.
Yeah. If you could share any links to this sort of information, that'd be great.
[01:00:18] Speaker C: Yeah, sure you can find something.
[01:00:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh good. No, no, it's, it's, it's amazing work what you're doing.
[01:00:24] Speaker C: Well right now there is a project that we're, we're working on it that is a project that is also with the United nations and this program called Vanishing Species.
No. So now we're just started and let's see what happens. No, the focus species is Andenberg. We're going to do it here in Colombia and Ecuador.
So yeah, the idea is to find sites in both countries to implement some conservation and the bear conservation work and research. So let's see.
Yeah, let's see. This area can be one of those.
[01:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope so.
I hope so. Yeah. Actually I'd also love to hear any others any sort of like interesting stories of your from the field when you do, when you were conducting your research or how difficult is it doing field work and sort of the forest, the cloud forest.
[01:01:23] Speaker C: Well, very difficult and Well, I told you that I have a depth with. With bears. Right, that's because.
So I studied bears since 2008. That means 18 years. Right.
19 years ago I have an accident, a motorcycle accident and I lost my leg. Part of my leg.
Right.
[01:01:45] Speaker B: All right. Oh, I'm sorry Hip.
[01:01:48] Speaker C: Not really. No. Thank you.
But yeah is things they confabulate and a friend of mine that work in this reserve, Maki Pupuna she brought me there. No.
And because she was concerned about. I was in recovery and I was using a prosthetic. Not very easy to walk, using crunches. No, I was not even thinking going to work because say. Well, I, I won't be able to move.
No.
So bears make me move.
No, they, they forced me to move.
The beginning were. Were meters.
Today are kilometers.
[01:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:35] Speaker C: And today well, I have this project that I was telling you that is climbing mountains for Andean bears.
No.
Is a way of giving back bears or what they give me because I, I, I am alive because of them. I will not know what what we. What was about me today if I were not studying bears, you know, probably was in a, maybe in an office behind a desk, who knows? But Those are the ones that took me in the forest. Say, okay, you want to, you want to study, man? Okay, you have to follow me up in the mountain.
No. And well, you must, you must think that it was hard at the beginning.
Right.
And most of the times I went further my limits.
No, but that was the passion. That was the passion about this animal.
And yeah. When today I'm climbing mountains for them.
[01:03:36] Speaker B: Oh, well, it's very inspiring.
It makes me want to get out behind this desk and start doing something useful now.
[01:03:44] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I had to come to Ecuador and we were planning some.
[01:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to. That's what something I love about this podcast. I get to meet so many interesting people and obviously bear people are always the best people. So.
[01:03:56] Speaker C: Well, this. I think you will hear the stories very similar. No, because the people that, that study bears, they don't study for money, right?
They don't study to be behind a desk.
No, they. They study them because they love nature.
No. And they love the challenge because bears are everywhere. They're in conflict.
So that's something that for me is. I don't like it really, to study to, to. To work with conflicts. Right. That is. I mean, you want to study the species, you are going to end up doing that.
[01:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:34] Speaker C: So. But you have to, I think is that the best thing is we. At the beginning, I believe the parabolic is they were. They. We call it anthologists, that they. We want to do everything.
No, and sometimes you have to. But now I believe that today you can be supported by other specialists in different fields and you can form very good teams.
So we, we. I had the experience because if also, if you go and, and work with conflicts, also you have the, the honor and the opportunity to work with education and to work with people. And that's something that. I'm not an educator, but I have. I like it.
No, I. It's very important.
No, so I like. I like when I educate people about bear. So we. We developed this thing, this educational tool that we call it Knowing the Andean Bear School park.
Yeah. So what is a school park?
This is a. This is a tool that we do it with facilitators and we create stations know which you go and follow on in order between station. No. And then you receive information about bears.
No actualized information, but we do it in the parks of communities.
Yeah. Because something that was also brought by the Spaniards was the architecture of communities.
And today, if you've been in Spain, probably you will see the same.
You have the town and there's always a big church with a park outside.
That's everywhere in Ecuador, mainly in the highlands.
So parks are very important because that's the meeting point for people that live in the rural areas. In the weekends they come out to find supplies.
[01:06:46] Speaker B: So I market day or, or something like that.
[01:06:48] Speaker C: Go to the church.
No.
And to socialize, play sports.
Right.
So we have found that in most of these towns, parks is the best place for doing education, but not just for kids, for the whole family, the whole structure.
So the last, last year we did nine school parks.
No. So we climb, we climb a mountain, we hike a trail, and the next day, Sunday usually we do the school parks.
No. So that was that, that was the project, the climbing and the school parks. No. And how we.
Because also I was doing, I was guiding in the mountains. Mountaineers.
And 95 of them, they didn't know nothing about bears.
No. And this is people that they, they, they are in the mountains, they have resources.
Right.
And they don't know bears. No. And then you have people that go in the villages that they know about bears. Myths, they have conflicts. No. They have feelings about bears, but they also. They don't know nothing about them.
[01:08:01] Speaker B: I mean, like, it was very cool.
Yeah, that's some really nice engagement work there.
I mean, I was gonna say, when you say they don't even know, I mean, like, what. I'm assuming the advice is probably similar to other bear species, but like, what. What's the advice for people if they do come across a bear, an Andean
[01:08:18] Speaker A: bear in the wild?
[01:08:20] Speaker C: Well, the first thing is that the first thing that they know is they told him about bears and they told you. Oh yeah, the, the anteater.
Because here anteaters are called bears.
Yeah, yeah. And sloths. Slots are also called bears in Spanish.
Yeah, yeah. When you. We go to.
Yeah. It's not to villages where they don't. Where they lack education. No. You go at Mountaineers bears. Oh yeah. The slow bear.
Well, do you think they look like they look similar? Because you know it's not. Right. Yeah, yeah. Now that you say then they don't look similar. And I said the anteater even worse because the anteater, you know, has a. No, they're not even related.
Now that you said this is okay. And have you eat, you know, what's a per?
No, no, no. What is a per. So then you got stories and you find you end with a pineapple.
No.
So at the end, people are really. Is a face to face.
No empowerment.
Really. And and it's very nice, the experience of, of talking with people and, and surprise them about information.
And at the end, they know. They go. They go back home with, with a lot of important information about bears. But know that I hope that they, they will empower them in their protection. No, because, you know, it's. It's that saying, no, if you can. If you don't know them, you can't defend them, you know?
Yeah.
[01:09:59] Speaker B: Similar things like I've said with black bears, where it's like when to know them, you understand them, and then you end up loving them.
[01:10:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Because it can be just romanticism because they're pretty. They're cutie. I want to hug them. No, this is the real life. No fencing, education, working with people, trying to find other ways that people can produce resources.
No.
And tourism can be one.
But doing it on the right way with bears as the principal beneficiary of that. Yeah.
[01:10:37] Speaker B: Well, you say they're an umbrella species. So if it's benefiting the bears, it's also benefiting the wider forest and population and all the other amazing and wonderful creatures that live there.
[01:10:50] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, people are here. I mean, it's very, very hard work.
But now people from Quito. Quito is very important because, you know, 90% of the people from Quito, they don't know about bass.
For years, they were traveling six hours to go to the beach to find nature.
No, but they have now they have experiences that just around the corner here in the back, you have beautiful places where you can find fantastic wildlife, including bears.
So it's a process.
[01:11:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely.
[01:11:29] Speaker C: Well, like I said, no to people.
You're a lucky. A lucky guy. No, keep it, keep it like that. Know, Enjoy that. Enjoy the presence. If he's far away, enjoy it. I hope you have tools to. You can see it better, know, like scopes or binoculars.
There has not been an attack with bears to humans still. But we are close. No, because the interaction is. Is growing, but not in a good way.
So.
So people are getting into bear territory without that knowing. Without the knowing about facts about bears.
And also without guides sometimes. And also with dogs.
No dogs is a big problem here.
[01:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's not good. A lot of human bear conflicts happen when dogs are involved.
[01:12:25] Speaker C: Exactly. That's my concern. And so we are trying to do something about it because, I mean, people.
Because they don't know. They are afraid. They see a bird, probably they will run away.
They will find a rock and try to throw them.
Right.
But if they have A dog, things can change. It's a wild animal.
And so you don't know how they are going to react.
Yeah, so we don't want that.
[01:12:55] Speaker B: No, not at all.
[01:12:56] Speaker A: That happened today, March 23rd.
[01:13:00] Speaker B: The state we're speaking on is actually
[01:13:01] Speaker A: apparently World Bear Day.
You're right.
[01:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Is there an Andean Bear Day or am I making that up? All right, maybe I'm trying to.
[01:13:11] Speaker C: We're trying to. No worries. No, no.
I mean different organizations have used different days and for example, here in South America we are celebrating as an Andean bear the international birthday for protection, which is the 21st of February.
[01:13:34] Speaker B: Oh. So it's just been.
[01:13:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
And we have been using, I mean we have been using that day for years.
And at some point I was concerned about this because we have a condor day and we have a tapir day. I think those are the only two species that have a day.
I was trying to propose the Andean bear day as the 21st of February. And that's a process that you need political support because it's in the Congress they declare it.
Right. So. Well, I tried. I almost had it. I had the support but then my link which was the major of Tito, he was kicked out.
So that was lost.
And years ago we talked with other people from Colombia and there's no Andean birthday in any country.
[01:14:34] Speaker B: Oh, that's.
[01:14:34] Speaker A: That's interesting.
[01:14:35] Speaker B: Well, the campaign starts here. We'll get Andy and Bday established.
[01:14:39] Speaker C: We talk, we talk about it this in, in the last meeting and I hope we can.
We could have the, the support. Sometimes you, you feel a little bit by a lonely ranger. No, we did. I don't know if you have been in these international pair conferences. I was kind of responsive of or of bringing the conference to Ecuador in 2017.
We had the conference here in Quito and it was the first IBA conference in South America. Oh, wow.
[01:15:12] Speaker B: It's a milestone.
[01:15:14] Speaker C: So was a, was a. I mean I was very, very stressful. I didn't enjoy it.
No. But today a lot of people said that was one of the best conferences so far. No, because Quito is a. You know, people, people love it most. Everybody saw bears because there was the aguacatio season.
So they went to the reserve and almost every. Everybody saw bears.
Right.
I, I guided a post conference tour with all these goats and we saw bears the last day in the last afternoon.
So it was, I was very stressed.
But in was. It was incredible. And I thought after that money and projects were going to rain.
Right.
Happened that Was the last. In 2017. That was the last survey that we did here in the. On the northwest. Here in the Atoandino region.
The last monitoring that we did with camera traps. And there were no resources, Nothing.
No. So.
[01:16:22] Speaker B: Oh, wow. It seems so long ago. Hasn't been anything done since.
[01:16:27] Speaker C: Yeah. I have been doing not as. As a. As a landscape project, small things with education. This here, this that.
No, but not real. A big project that we need. That we need. No.
So it was, it was a shame. Right. But I think that right now with all on that time, that was not the Chaquandino. Now Chokandino is famous. Everybody talks about Chokandino.
No, so. And we have this project with United Nations. Let's see.
Yes, let's see.
[01:16:59] Speaker B: It sounds very hopeful. Yeah.
Why are Andean bears important? And why are they. Why should they be saved?
[01:17:08] Speaker C: Well, everybody love bears, right? Right. Is one of the most charismatic animals that can bring you very important feelings.
No.
Is a. Is a good way of bringing those feelings to respect nature being this landscape species. No, this is important to show that to people that these animals, they live, they need a lot of territory.
These territories were in more areas. In most of the areas is where water is born.
In these mountains, bears, through their feeding behavior, they conserve forest because they disperse seeds.
We still don't know. But I mean, there's no question about it. That is a huge hummingbird.
No. Because it's pollinating plants as well through their feeding behavior.
And also in the forest is very important because one of the limitations of forest is light.
So when bears feed, they break branches and they open spaces for light to go through.
So they are also promoting conservation.
And like I was saying. No, I mean, it's not just that if nice feelings about how cute they are. They have an ecological role that without them probably we're going to disappear.
Right. So to have embars in a forest or in a habitat, that means that something good is going on.
Yeah.
[01:18:48] Speaker B: Well, like you say, architects of the forest.
And I know I've already said it, but like if people wanted to find out more about Andean bears or yourself or any of the projects are working on. Is there any sort of websites or links you've got there or.
[01:19:04] Speaker C: I'm a very. I'm a generation X.
What that means.
I'm not really, really into. Into. Into the network, but I. I mean, I'm trying to.
Through our Instagram page and Facebook page, my personal. But I hope that in the future we are going to have a. Some Some social network about this project of the United Nations. No.
[01:19:28] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:19:29] Speaker C: But my Instagram which is Santiago slash. No, the slash is underlined letter Santiago with K at the end.
Santiago.
Okay. Also, also ah line. Also that's my Instagram for anyone that
[01:19:50] Speaker B: might not know what's, what is Oso.
[01:19:53] Speaker C: Oso is there.
[01:19:55] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go.
[01:19:58] Speaker C: And Santiago is my name. Santiago with a K.
That some when I was I've been lucky to work with indigenous groups with related to tourism.
One of them, they call him Santek. And I went to find what it is and is cockroach difficult to kill.
[01:20:17] Speaker B: All right.
Survivor. Yeah, sounds like, sounds like you've, you've got a lot of projects and you're keeping very busy. So I'm sure there'll be loads of people interested to hear how things go and yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to mention or any kind of things that you'd want people to take away from this?
[01:20:39] Speaker C: Well, I think I, I have sailed most of the, the things that I believe is important, I think. Well for me, you know, as I have, I, I, I have a big debt with bears and I'm trying to do my best on giving back. No. And try to when I'm not here, know that there are still people concerned about them and I hope some researchers that are taking the post.
No. Which is my, my, my kind of my deepest feeling, you know, So I had to, I, I, I, I give it. Well, probably not 100, but a lot of me for best. I hope I can do it more.
But that's what they need.
They need people with that destiny.
No, that, with that commitment.
No. So I hope that, that some of them will show in the future.
[01:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well then, I mean, well, by the sounds of it, I know that you say you have a debt to bears and you're paying it back 10 times over, I think.
[01:21:56] Speaker C: Hope so.
[01:21:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:22:00] Speaker A: Thank you once again, Santiago.
[01:22:02] Speaker B: He's a great voice for these bears
[01:22:04] Speaker A: and they're lucky to have him. And I'm hopeful that the next generation of conservationists and researchers are out there waiting in the wings, ready to follow in his footsteps.
[01:22:13] Speaker B: There was one thing I wanted to address.
[01:22:15] Speaker A: After a quick Google search, there may be some North American listeners saying there
[01:22:19] Speaker B: is an Andean Bear day celebrated on
[01:22:21] Speaker A: July 21, which I guess is true,
[01:22:24] Speaker B: but I guess this is not an
[01:22:25] Speaker A: internationally recognized date thus far.
[01:22:28] Speaker B: On those sorts of occasions, I like to share my favorite species fact. And my one for Andean bears is
[01:22:33] Speaker A: that they actually have 13 pairs of ribs, which is one less than any other bear species. This is a unique adaptation to their mountainous habitat and contributes their overall physical structure and behavior. So that's your fact for that day.
[01:22:47] Speaker B: Speaking of, we'll be journeying back up
[01:22:49] Speaker A: north for the next episode and until
[01:22:51] Speaker B: then, as ever, thank you for listening.
[01:22:53] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Philip Stubley and this is the Bear Den.
The Bear Den, the American Bear association podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubley. The music was composed by React Music.
Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Hauserman, Bill Lee, Clary Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka Ross, Cole Hoyer and Angie Page.
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[01:24:10] Speaker C: Sam.
