Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: There is a place in the remote northwards of Minnesota and North America. It's located near the town of orr, population approximately 300. Outside this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side. It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vince Tutti Wildlife Sanctuary, run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short. The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife education, observation and experience.
I'm your host Philip Stubley and welcome to the Bear Den.
Hello everyone. The Bear Den podcast continues to grow and evolve as we think of new features and discussion topics. One that will hopefully become a semi regular feature is Volunteer Tales and for this first one we have something a little special that will be spread across two episodes. Recently, ABA co founder Karen Housman and I had an interesting conversation about the before times. This is before the sanctuary was founded, so this chat included her first meeting with Vince back in 1990 and the road to the formation of the ABA. It's worth noting that this was over 30 years ago and attitudes to bears were different. Karen herself admits as much, acknowledging she has changed her mind and views on many things. We have come a long way since then. The ABA is effectively a completely different, different kettle of fish to what came before. We provide bears with a much more species appropriate diet. We feed on a regular schedule from green buckets with scoops. There is absolutely no touching of bears and we aim to maintain a 10 foot distance between humans and bears to keep both animals safe.
It's fascinating to learn more about Vince and his idiosyncrasies and the profound effect that the area that would later become the Magic Circle had on people. But first, it's time for the subspecies spotlight.
There are 16 subspecies of North American black bear and this section highlights one or more of them. I'm already switching the format up a bit and you're getting three subspecies for the price of one. Today these bears are all vaguely linked, as you'll soon hear. I am referring to the West Mexican Black Bear, the East Mexican Black Bear and the New Mexico Black bear. Mexican Black Bear subspecies are the only American black bears classified as endangered. Information on black bears in Mexico in general is very sparse with limited studies. Both west and East Mexican black bears status is fraught with East Mexican Black bear numbers unknown. They are listed as critically endangered in Mexico and as endangered in Texas. The New Mexico Black bear status, on the other hand, is closely monitored and not in danger.
The West Mexican Black bear, scientific name Ursus americanus machetus, was first described by Elliot in 1903. The species fur is generally dark black, although individuals can appear brown or even beige. There are anecdotal reports of predation on cattle by these bears for habitat and range. They are found in north central Mexico, mainly in the Sierra Nevada Occidental Range and adjoining mountains. The high plateau of the Sierra Nevada Occidental averages 2,250 metres in elevation. The plateau is cut by deep valleys and canyons and consists of large areas of oak and pine forest. The bears are found in temperate forests of the western and eastern Sierra Madre Oriental and other adjoining mountain ranges, encompassing areas in the surrounding states.
The East Mexican black bear, scientific name Ursus americanus eremicus, were described in 1904 by Clinton Hart Merriam, an American zoologist commonly known as the father of mammalogy. They are sometimes referred to as East Mexican black bears or simply as Mexican black bears. One interesting fact is that after 100 years the black bear's presence was reconfirmed in central Mexico by a trail camera survey taken in Sierra Gorda in 2019. It is believed that the bear came from the Nuevo Leon population, so it is assumed this was an East Mexican black bear. The bear's habitat includes northeastern Mexico and the US Borderlands with Texas. They are mainly found in Big Bend national park and the desert border with Mexico. Their exact range isn't certain but thought to cover a number of states including Sonora, Chihuahua, Nuevo Leon and Durango. Their habitat can be low elevation desert scrub and persimmon woodlands in mountainous areas. Threats to both the East Mexican black bear and the West Mexican black bear include human encroachment and habitat loss, poaching and illegal wildlife trade in body parts. On a lighter note, I've saved the bear that most people might be familiar with till last. The New Mexico black bear, Ursus americanus ambliceps. Spencer Fullerton Baird, American naturalist, described these bears in 1859. Baird was a foremost figure in his time and became the first curator to be named at the Smithsonian Institution. The black bear was adopted as New Mexico's State Animal on February 8, 1963. Their face adorns the logo of New Mexico's Department of Game and Fish. The New Mexico black bear's claim to fame is through their association with with Smokey Bear. Smokey Bear was created in 1944 by the US Forest Department to promote forest fire prevention and in 1950 he was given new life. A New Mexico black bear cub was found alive in a tree after a massive forest fire in the Lincoln National Forest near Capitan, New Mexico, and was named Smokey. He became a living symbol for fire prevention and conservation, living until 1976. After he died, Smoky was buried back where he was found in Capitan, New Mexico. Black bears are found in Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, eastern Arizona, and southeastern Utah. They have also been documented in the far north of Mexico. They are found in mountainous areas and forests during drought conditions or habitat degradation. Sub adult bears have been known to come into communities in and around Albuquerque in search of food. Threats to the New Mexico black bear include predation by other bears, being killed as conflict bears, and hunting by humans. In New Mexico, bears have been documented to live for 20 to 25 years. They are hunted in most of their range, bringing their average lifespan down to seven to eight years.
And now, without further ado, let's hear from Karen.
How are you today?
[00:06:44] Speaker B: Oh, pretty good, and I'm happy to be here.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: Oh, that's. That's good to hear, too. So could you start off by telling us just a little bit about your background and where you grew up?
[00:06:53] Speaker B: Well, I grew up in Waterbury, Connecticut.
I've also lived in New York City, Philadelphia. Then I moved to Minnesota for 30 years, and now I'm back in New Jersey. Oh, New Jersey was one of the states that I lived in, too.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: And where. Where did you prefer?
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Actually, I love Minnesota, but the winters were really hard on me.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Where did the fascination with bears come from? When did it begin?
[00:07:20] Speaker B: You know, I'm not sure. Looking back on it, I always preferred my teddy bears and especially when my father had given me the day I was born, he brought it to the hospital you mentioned.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Obviously, you lived in Minnesota for 30 years. So what were you doing professionally?
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Well, I came to Minnesota because I was separating from my husband. We remained good friends though, actually, and I was going to nursing school. It was either between Florida or Minnesota. I realized when I went to Florida, it was with friends and it was always party time. And at that time in my life, I had two teenagers coming along who were going to be needing school. So I thought, no, is not the time for party, and it's a time for getting a serious career. So I moved to Minnesota and with the thoughts that I'd be moving back east after I got my rn. But I just loved it so much and the kids loved it, too. So I stayed there 30 years. That's the longest place I've ever lived.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: How did you first hear about the bear man in the Northwoods?
[00:08:25] Speaker B: I Saw a book entitled the Great American Bear. And I bought the book. I was fascinated. And prior to buying the book, I used to go up to the North Shore, and they were open dumps at the time. And people told us, you can go and watch. Just stay back from the bears. They won't hurt you. They're only there to eat. So I thought, okay, we'll go and visit the dump. And on my way in, I'm telling myself, this is really crazy. These are dangerous animals, and what am I doing?
And I knew I was going to see a bear, so I was sort of secret. I had no experience with them until then. Was secretly plotting my escape route just in case.
And then all of a sudden, there was a bear on top of a garbage pile. And it was like I froze.
I didn't think about f stops or shutter speed or anything. I just start clicking away.
And then I thought, okay, I got the picture. And I turned to my left, and there, about 15ft, was a bear sitting next to me.
Now, this is my first time with live bears. And I thought, oh, my God.
And then I noticed he wasn't doing anything. He was just sitting. And more kept coming up. And then all of a sudden, some guy went up on the garbage dump. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm going to witness a killing here.
And then I suddenly realized that, no, these bears were very placid, very much, you know, contained. I went back again with a lot less fear to get some pictures.
And then another time, then I. I saw the book that I had mentioned, and it was Lynn Rogers had done all the photography in it. And I thought, wow, this guy lives right up in Ely. That's amazing.
And then some courses came up. It didn't say who the. Who the professor was or who was teaching it. And I signed up for a couple of black bear ecology courses. And then there was a course, the Difference of Black Bears and Grizzly bears. And so I took the courses. Oh. Meanwhile, I started to tell my family that I was going and observing these bears, and they thought I was crazy. My brother was actually mad at me and said, if you go any place where there's black bears and you don't have a gun, you're crazy.
No, I. I stopped talking about it to the family because I knew they were talking amongst themselves, like, Karen has really flipped out.
But I had this theory that if I bought a little cabin in bear country, that I could befriend a bear within a year. Now, I know now that would not be the thing to Do. But at the time, it was my theory. But I didn't tell anybody about it. I just knew I could do it. I met one person at the conference, I felt comfortable telling him, and he said, sure, you could do that. There's a guy up in Orr, a retired logger. He does the very same thing. I said, really? Could you. Do you know him? He said, yeah. I said, could I go up there sometime? He said, oh, yeah, you know, he welcomes company and blah, blah, blah. So he told me how to get there. At that time, it was too late for that summer. So soon as spring came around next year, up I went. And that's how I. How I met Vince. But the trip in, I had to go, you know, 17 miles or, no, 13 miles down that one road. And then the directions were at the big pine tree. You take a right and you go two miles down. Well, I started down the road. It seemed like I had gone 10 miles, not two. And I'm not seeing anything. And there was no place to turn around. And I'm saying, nobody could live here. This. Look at. There's not even telephone wires. There's no. There's nothing. How do I get out of here? I didn't dare try to turn around. Then I'm thinking, it's really pretty down here, though. I just kept going down the road looking for a place to turn, and all of a sudden a bear ran across the road. And I thought, oh, wow, there, look at. There's a bear. I said to a friend that was with me. And then we went a little more, and then there was kind of a larger area, and I thought, oh, I could turn here, I think. And then a few feet beyond was Vince's trailer.
And I said, oh, this must be it. And at the time, Vince was hobbling out of his trailer with his big stick. And I said to my friend, oh, God, that must be Vince. And he said, you do the talking.
And I suddenly thought, this guy lives way out here. He probably does not want people around.
So I sort of reluctantly said, oh, hi, are you Vince? And he said, yes. And then I. I told him, I said, I'm a friend of Jeff Traskas. Oh, Jeff, Jeff. Oh, yeah, I know Jeff.
So at least he knew that I had some reason to be in there and started talking about his bears. And he came right out and started introducing the bears to me. And he said, oh, here, you want to get a picture of you and me? He will sit right down here, right in front of Muffin. And Muffin was on one log, and we sat on the other log and I'm thinking, oh, oh, my God, I hope this bear doesn't take a bite out of my neck. But Muffin stayed there for a couple of pictures and then got up and left. I think he was disgusted. And then Vince said, well, we have brought some cookies out, so we're giving them to Vince. And he says, oh, no, I don't eat them. He says, you give them to the bears. And so first I was throwing some, and then he said, oh, look at here. Here's Duffy. He said, duffy's a good old boy. You can pet him. And he started petting Duffy, and then there was Brownie, started petting. And he said, you want to pet one? I said, oh, oh, gee, I don't know. He doesn't know me. He said, just pet these two. Don't pet the other ones. I don't know how they'd be. So I reluctantly, sort of tried to sneak my arm around and pet Duffy. And I was alive several minutes later. So I figured, well, it's okay.
He went in the house. He said he had his cabin or trailer. He had to do something. He says, if you need anything, just let me know.
So I started feeding the bears and Duffy was there, and I was giving him these cookies that I brought, which I realize now it shouldn't have been, but that was that time. And then when the cookies were going, Vince had already told us to show what? Your hands. Just show them your hands like that. He'll be fine.
So I did. I said, that's it, Duffy. I have no more. And Duffy walked away like so. Then Vince came out at after a few minutes and said he had to go into town. I said, oh, okay, you know, is it okay if we come back tonight when you feed him? He said, yeah, but he says, you know, he said, the bears seem to like you. If I'm going to leave the gate open, people might come in. Just tell them what you know about bears, keep them all in line.
And I thought, oh, wow. Yeah. So we were out there and it was, you know, a few bears here and there. And then all of a sudden it's getting later and later and more bears are coming. And we're there since about 10 o'clock in the morning, starting to get hungry. And I thought, well, I'll just open the back of the car, make a couple of sandwiches. I quickly learned that was not going to happen. As soon as I opened the back of the car, I had several bears there. So we went in the car, and I'm crawling around trying to make a peanut butter sandwich or something to eat because I was starving at that point.
And there's bears walking around the car. And I thought, oh, is this safe? This is when they're going to break in. Now they know we're eating.
They didn't. They just walked around. So then I got back out of the car after we ate, and I sat up in a. A big skitter that Vince used to have there. The bear sort of climbed down the cars and sort of looked in at me, and I kept showing my empty hands. And I'm thinking, oh, God, I said, I hope this guy comes back pretty soon. This is getting. Look at all these bears. At the time, this went from two or three bears to suddenly like 30 bears. And the huge ones started to line up in a certain line across the road. All of a sudden, these bears are charging, running. And I thought, oh, my God, what's happening? Two minutes later, in drives, Vince, they heard him before I heard him.
And he starts hauling, throwing out all this stuff to them. And that was my introduction to him. I was just amazed, getting pictures, just staring in amazement. And we said we were staying in town and could we come back the next day.
And he said, sure. He said, you know, I feed him in the morning, too, if you want to come out and see me feed him. He says, maybe you could help me. I said, oh, okay, that sounds good. So he said, he starts about six or seven.
So we went back out the next day, and we're feeding them. And I do know when we first went, the bears were fine with me when I was near Vince, and they were fine with me on the road. But if I tried to go into what is now the magic circle by myself, they were a bit more, you know, reluctant to let me in, or at least I felt they were.
But if Vince was there, I could go in. I could walk in the magic circle with them. We kept going up. Then almost every week then I noticed they were fine with me in the Magic Circle. But me entering the woods without Vince was another issue.
And then I could go in with him. But if I tried to go in myself, sometimes they actually would stand up and put a paw against a tree. They'd stand right on the path. Now, I don't know whether that was coincidence or if that was their way of saying, you're not welcome here. Well, I'm not going to fight these black bears that I don't quite know yet. So I. I just went by what they wanted Me to do.
I figured they had the. They had the word out there, not me. And then soon after that, they got okay with me going into the woods and even walking around anywhere out there without fence.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: What was the site? Can you kind of describe what the. The area looked like back then?
[00:19:19] Speaker B: Oh, my word.
There were piles of corn all over. He mostly fed them corn at the time. But every night he went into town and bought cases of cookies, bags of marshmallows and bags of bread. And he had one person that used to bring him up stuff from Tasty Cake in the cities. He collected all month. It was expired stuff, and he used to bring that up once a month. So there was tons of boxes out there. Vince would throw the whole box out because he'd say, if the bear doesn't want to eat it right now, at least it's in a box.
Bears were getting like whole. Whole boxes of cookies and whole bags of marshmallows. So I would be out there looking like kind of an idiot with my pants tucked in, my socks and old dirty shoes on, and a hat to keep little gnats out of my hair running around flinging cookies out to bears.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it's quite an image. So how frequent did you keep going back?
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Well, I was a nurse and we had to work every other weekend. So just about every other weekend I would go up and then I got to know, like, some of its friends up there. Now, the first night we were up there to backtrack, he came out of his cabin and we were still in there. Most of the people had left. And then he said, can I ask? As he said, can I ask? I said, oh, my God, it's so late, Vince, I'm sorry. I said, but this is such a fascinating place, you know, we're going to go. And he said, no, no. He says, can I ask you people in for coffee?
I said, oh, no, no, that's okay. And my friend said he really wants us to go in and we should go.
So we said, well, okay, you know, if. If you're going to be up. But we. I said, I feel bad. We've been here all day. And you know. But I said, I feel like I'm in bear heaven. And so we went in and we had coffee and some kind of old pastry that probably I thought kind of came from some of the bears old food, but didn't have mold on it. So what the heck. We had. We had a little. And then we had to go. And I kept apologizing for being there so late and he says, oh, no, no. He says, I like to get company. He says, I live out here, I have no neighbors. He said, it's good for me to have company. And my friend later said, you know, I really think he meant that. I said, yeah, I kind of think he did too. I said I was a little bit afraid, him living way out in the woods, that he wouldn't want people around. But I said, he really seems to like to talk and he had some good stories at the time. And you really almost couldn't get a word in edgewise because he was telling all sorts of stories.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: I'm sure you remember some of the stories. Is there one you want to say?
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Oh, Lordy, that could be a whole other podcast.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: Maybe we can come back to that.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Because a lot of them were like old lager tales you could kind of tell when he was giving you an old logger tale that had a lot of embellishment because he'd laugh and he'd have a certain twinkle in his eye and it wasn't like lying, it was almost like he was entertaining you.
But then every so often, one of the, maybe one of the most elaborate stories that you thought he told, some evidence would come true or some guy would come in and it had happened. So who knows? One, one story used to tell us about the 40 foot snake that lived in the creek. And if I went down by the creek, I should go with a knife because I would have to slit him. Vince hated snakes. And I said, oh God, I won't get there close, Vince. He says, ho, ho, ho. He says, he springs up out of the water. He said, I saw him take a guy for lunch head first. The guy was kicking all the way down.
I used to say to friends, you know, I said, I'm convinced that one of these days a 40 foot snake is going to come out of that crate. We're going to find out. Vince was right, I guess.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: Were there anyone else? Was many other people helping Vince at that point at all?
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Not at that point really. They were bringing. Some people would bring remains of their dinner in, or nobody was actually going out and helping them with the feeding at that point.
The following year I went up and I had told Jeff, who had told me about this place, you know, Vince is getting older. And I said, I said, I really don't know how much longer he's gonna be able to do this. And Vince used to even say, what's going to happen when something happens to me? And say, I don't, I don't know. Vince that was always on his mind. And I don't know if it was that winter or the next winter. I would go up every two weeks and there would be problems that I would solve for him. Like he had a big wood pile in the basement and he no longer could get down the basement stairs and with a flashlight bring the wood over to the his wood stove. So I brought him up a wagon. I bought a wagon and had it assembled and brought that up. And then I got him a lantern that he could hang up so he wouldn't have to carry a flashlight. And just little things, it seemed was a solution one week, two weeks later was no longer a solution. At that point then I had known some of his friends. A couple of good friends from the reservation was Benny Bonus and Bill Light.
And I talked to them and they had the concerns too. And he could hardly even get water out of his car. Benny Bona said that he would bring him water every week and Bill Light, he was going to help with the road. Benny used to help with the road too. People that ran the general store, they were going to bring them out something to eat a couple of times just to check on them. So they kind of coordinated who would bring what out. Vince would actually save food from one night to another night without refrigeration.
He was never sick. Sometimes meat in a can, he would open it up and eat half of it and then he would put it in a refrigerator. But he didn't have electricity, so refrigerator was just for storage. I used to say, Vince, you must have a cast iron stomach. So he got through that winter and then summer came and I realized he was needing more help. I took a couple of days off or I saved all my vacation time. I think I even used a couple of times a sick leave day to get up there a day early just to help. And it just was getting more and more. He needed more and more help.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: Be sure to tune into the next episode to hear what happens next with Vince, including Karen's first meeting with fellow co founders Bill and Clarie Lee, more bear stories and the path to the formation of the American Bear Association.
The Bear Den the American Bear association podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubley. The music was composed by React Music. Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Housman, Bill Lee, Clarie Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka, Ross Coyer and Angie Page. You can find out more about the American Bear association at www.americanbear.org. you can find Vince Shooty Wildlife Sanctuary on Facebook and Instagram. You can ask questions and submit comments about the podcast to Peace w americanbear.
The ABA is a special circumstance. We do not condone feeding wild animals. If you enjoy this podcast, help support the ABA either by donating, becoming an ABA member, symbolically adopting a bear, or come visit the sanctuary during the season and say hello.
