[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Philip and this is the Bear Den where we talk about wildlife with a particular focus on, you guessed it, bears.
This is the second part of my chat with Jay Pratt.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: So if you haven't heard the first.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Part, A, what are you doing here? And B I strongly recommend you listen to that. Jay has worked with animals in various roles for over 30 years and we talked about his background, his work with giant pandas, being an expert witness and high profile animals, animal cases and the importance of behaviour based husbandry and animal care.
And in this second part we talk about something that's close to my heart. The BearCare group. It's a non profit that Jay helped co found and I'm lucky enough to be involved on the board of directors. The Bear Care Group was set up to foster improvements in global bear welfare and conservation through communication, cooperation and education among international bear care professionals. Bear Care Group has reached hundreds of bear caregivers and helped improve welfare for well over a thousand bears around the world from Romania to India and Vietnam.
So listen on to hear more about Elsa Poulsen and her work. Elsa was a force to be reckoned with in the bear world and is a much missed presence as she has sadly passed.
We talk about what the Bear Care Group does and how we are continuing Elsa's legacy, including future plans with virtual webinars and and international workshops in the pipeline. We also hear more about Jay and his rescue work with dogs, including a personal story about a dog rescue in India following a bear care workshop. For anyone interested in bears and bear care, it's a must. Listen. Jay's expertise and passion is infectious and it's certainly making me want to get out and do and learn more and I trust you feel the same way.
So let's take it away.
There is a place in the remote northwoods of Minnesota, North America. It's located near the town of orr, population approximately 300.
Outside of this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side. It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vinscue Wildlife Sanctuary run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short.
The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife through education, observation and experience.
I'm your host, Philip Stubley and welcome to the Bear Den.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: I'm always a bit humbled when I'm in, I'm in the sort of group meetings, I'm listening to everyone and I'm just like sometimes feel a Bit of imposter syndrome.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: And I understand that. Try taking over the role. Try to take over Elsa's role, even now, this many years later. Elsa did this, Elsa did that. I've been president for years. Her and I co founded. And, like, part of it is like, I feeling like I can never fill her shoes. I can and I can't. No one can. No one can replace Elsa. You can't replace, you know, Jane Goodall. It's the same thing. I, you know, on a Mertz for rhinos in the Lewa Conservancy in Kenya, there's people. You can't replace them, but you try to carry on their legacy and you devolve and you do things in a different way. So I understand that very well.
And I'm always jealous because you're like, oh, I was just in Bordeaux. Oh, I was. All these places that I want to go that I'm like, all right, now we got to figure out how to get Wong and those guys and the ones in South America, the ones in Borneo. Like, I really want to be able to visit and help these places in this kind of role of mine in anything, training, capacity building, whatever. So I'm just as jealous of you with these opportunities. And, you know, you look at people's lives. Mine has been slow and steady and building through my career to get where I am, and seeing and meeting somebody who's been able to travel and see all these different places and take advantage of these different opportunities is not a way I could have approached my life. And I'm. I'm kind of jealous of it sometimes. Even though at my age now I don't want to do it. I want to go and visit these. I don't want to hop from place to place all the time. It is. I think it's a different way of experiencing, you know, the world, and it gives you a global perspective you might not have had otherwise.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: And I think, well, for me as well, it was a bit of, you know, luck and design where I just reached out to places and was just like, you know, is. Is there some. Can I come visit? Is there something I can do to help? And of course, when they said, oh, we. We need someone who can do this and this, you just say, yeah, I can do all of that.
Then you go away and learn how to do it, and then you get out there. And of course, I kind of just basically try to find the. The gaps that I can feel like, what is it? What is it I can do to contribute here? But, yeah, just one Other thing about Elsa I kind of wanted to talk about before we kind of got onto kind of the bearcare group and conferences and workshops. Obviously she's written, she wrote a couple of books and I have actually recorded an episode based off of Bella's story. It's just me kind of talking, talking away about it, but I also wanted to hear what your thoughts were on it. And also her other book, Smiling Bears.
[00:05:01] Speaker C: Yep.
So Smiling Bears was Elsa's first book. And it's very much kind of like the approach that we use, the behavior based husbandry.
It's recognizing bears, who they are, what they want.
Can you make your bear smile? Is your bear smiling? And it was, it's a great read. It really introduces you to who kind of Elsa is in her approach.
And she'd written that one before her and I had really kind of reconnected like Smiling Bears was available and know all over. Well, I was, she. We had reconnected and become much closer. When Bea's story, she was finishing it up, it was about to be published, I knew a lot of the story. She bounced some of the, some of the things off, off me. But when I read the book, it was, it's very different. Like, it's still Elsa, but it gives you that dedicated, driven, like without it being that whole fierce thing. It really, you can see what one person with the community around them, but what they can do and what they can accomplish. And it's such a story. And it's not just about Berla. It's about all the Suarez bears. It's about everybody around Berla.
I, I knew the story and I couldn't put that book down. And I would call her and I'd be like, elsa, oh my God, I love this part. I love this part. Like the photos and everything.
Bearless story. Not only is it a good, feel good tale about rescuing a bear and whatever else it talks about, the industry, the people involved, the collaboration. We talked about groups that don't normally work together, zoos and advocacy organizations, you know, and where that little bear goes from start to finish, and her start is not good, and her finish is way better. Is such an amazing tale. And it's seen through Elsa's lens. And so you get not only a feel for what they did, but you can understand the importance of it and why.
And to me, at any conversation, I just, I just recently presented, you know, a few months ago at the Big Cat Sanctuary alliance conference. And I will still use Berla's tale as an example of like Telling the story of how we can and should be making a difference in these animals lives.
When we hosted a bear care conference, I want to say it was our Scotland conference. We've done a lot. I actually the capstone presentation I did was Bearless Story. I talked about the book, the importance of the book, the key points of it in that because Elsa wasn't with us. And so I did it on her behalf and in honor and memoriam for her. So I'm intimately familiar with the story, the book, her process.
And again, it's integral to like kind of how I approach, you know, everything as well. So if you even like bears a little bit and you like an animal rescue story, I advise anybody smiling bears. Good read Bearless Story. If you want to buy one book to learn about Elsa and just have a great read, Bearless Story is the one to go with.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's a sort of book as well. You pick it up and it is a page turner and I feel like it's not actually, you know, it's not that long. So after a few hours you've kind of finished it. And then I found myself flipping back through it because there were bits I wanted to kind of just re. Revisit.
[00:08:24] Speaker C: Well, then you look at the pictures and the captioning of the picture. You want to go back to that chapter and read a little bit more about it.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, especially some of the. I mean it was just some of the stuff you learn about and obviously the. Some of the court cases where you know, you've got lawyers having this, having it sounds silly when you're having to explain why a polar bear shouldn't be in a Mexican climate like that. It's just like.
[00:08:46] Speaker C: But it, but it doesn't. What one of the things, a key point there when you asked me about the cases earlier.
So I've gone through expert witness training repeatedly by experienced, like legal teams. Some of them are experienced in animal law, but a lot of them aren't. And judges, they sure aren't. Like they don't know. Some of them may be hunters, some of them, most of them have no idea. And you're taught as an expert witness that you are there to kind of like a lecture, like a professional experience, like to talk to and teach the judge to help them understand why this is important. You got to back yourself up with facts and whatever else. But that's really kind of a key point because what we take for granted are opinions. What we believe should be true and what we've experienced to be true.
Most of the world does not have that perspective and experience.
And so it goes right through like local authorities, right all the way up to, you know, federal judges. And I've been in that position and I've seen that and it really is crazy.
And then the other side is working just as hard to defend themselves and defend their, you know, their stance, their case and their, their activities. So it's really, it's, it's, it's surprising. I have been in, in some court cases where some things have popped up that I was shocked or surprised or startled about and you just kind of figure out, okay, how do I address this, how do I deal with this? How do I try to, you know, demonstrate what I believe to be true and right?
[00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's probably something that shouldn't surprise me really. Bearcare groups.
We've had like, what is it, 11 conferences and workshops worldwide. Like, like you say Romania, Scotland, India.
I kind of wanted to sort of, for the listeners benefit, explain like what the difference was between a conference and a workshop and how, how you actually pull that sort of thing together.
[00:10:40] Speaker C: Oh goodness.
So when we, when we do a conference we are going to come up with a theme. We're probably going to, we're going to pick like a central location, somewhere that's kind of a little more cosmopolitan like Edinburgh or you know, somewhere in like, you know, Europe.
Here in the United States or in Canada. It was Calgary, Banff, Alberta. We did a couple in the west coast, like San Francisco, New Jersey, like where people can get to, it can be accessible for travel and that. And then we come up with a theme for the conference. And then the conferences are going to be a lot of small workshops, discussion groups, panels. It's usually over three, four days and there's a variety of experiences. It's what you would want out of a conference. You can present, you can present posters, you can hear, you can ask questions, you can network and interact. And there's going to be a day to go and experience the local zoo or sanctuary and you know, learn about what they're doing with their bears. So it's really kind of this overall immersive, resource based experience for bears. Bear caregivers everywhere. When we do workshops, it is generally we have a partner organization or, and, or there is an identified issue impacting bears, where they end up under human care. So while we may have a position or a thought like for example, on conservation or things, we're really focused on take bear care, taking care of them. So when you are looking at like you know, when we were working with wildlife sos it was rescuing the dancing bears and pulling them from those corner side opportunities and taking them into sanctuaries and animals. Asia, it was rescuing the bile bears. And so it's an industry or a situation that is adversely impacting bears, but those bears are ending up under human care where someone is trying to do better for them. And so we go in knowing what the background is, working with a partner organization and really going in with the opportunities and the resources that are more focused on how do we help with the issues specific to that region. Like we don't. A lot of times that's not where you're going to focus on like top end things like legislation, whatever else you're really focusing on. How do we deal with trauma, how do we deal with medical care, how do we deal with, you know, kind of those day to day improvements for training, relationship building, caregiving.
And they're very much targeted for the caregivers in that region. We actually do have, it's on our website as well. There's an annual, an opportunity available each time for a scholarship which we target towards individuals from a region who might not have the financial resources without that scholarship to be able to come and participate in the conference. We try to also have virtual or webinar based ones to always have those resources out there. But the workshop is us going in as the BearCare Group and working with a partner organization to really try and address specific challenges that exist in a region. And it's things that shock you is like, you know, there's always kind of common undertones. But really learning, you know, and seeing the differences that can come up between bears in a sanctuary in Romania versus India versus Vietnam and the challenges that they face.
It's really something we learn a lot every time as well as a board and as people. And there's still always people with the workshops that come to every conference that will travel from around the world. Even though it's targeted and meant to be more local for assistance, there are still people that come and bring not only their knowledge and experience but want to learn more about it at the time too. So they still end up being really great all around experiences.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean there's not the, the virtual webinars, I will talk about them in a little bit as well. They are like really good. But I think there is no substitute for those face to face conferences where you can and workshops where you can interact and talk to people. And just if you, if you hear someone says something in a Talk. And later on you can approach them and ask them a bit more about it.
[00:14:37] Speaker C: Well, it is. It's engaging, it's impactful. Like I said, it's a difference between, like a little zoom, raise your hand, ask a question or type it in, or whatever else. Whereas it's interactive. There's workshops, there's panels. And, I mean, I've learned. I've always got videos of training an animal, like, you know, when I'm doing presentations. But then ringing out and building a relationship with Borscht, the brown bear, in front of people that have never met this animal and seen what can happen, that's impactful in a very different way. And so there's value to all of them, but it's really figuring out what we have the time and the resources. Because, again, Bear Care Group is completely volunteer. We are dedicating and volunteering our time towards that. Those of us that are on the board or volunteer to help. And so we really have to figure out what are our parameters, what do we have the funds for, what do we have the capacity for? And that very much relies a lot of times on our partners like Animals, Asia Wildlife, SOS and others.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: My recent visit to India, where I was able, lucky enough to get to Wildlife sos, it's just the way my brain works. So whenever I go, I'm always looking at, right, what's. What's the enclosure size? What have they got in there? That's just like, how. What's the setup? Because that's kind of like a lot of what I've done is that or rehabilitation stuff, because I've got experience, obviously, raising orphan cubs and releasing to the wild as well. And I'm always just interested in what the different facilities are doing there. I know everyone else is coming with their own sort of, I guess, agenda or thoughts, so I. But that's where it's perfect, where you're all coming together, you've all got these different ideas, and then you can swap them and share them and learn from each other.
[00:16:11] Speaker C: And it's great because when you. When you come to one of. One of our conferences or our workshops, it's tougher to do in the webinars, but we'll still generally do it. But we'll all, like. We all come in with our own presentation. It's based on our themes, it's based on experience. We talk about it ahead of time, but. But then we also learn from the people. So, as you know, one of our guest speakers that came from Blah Blah Blah Zoo that did this with their bears. Like I listen and I'll work that example into my talk later on. So there's always that blending so that the theme stays on and we integrate what everybody brings to the table in our messaging. And I think that's one of the things, the takeaways are so strong because everybody feels involved, everybody feels like they have a voice and we make sure that we integrate their voices into what we do as a board. So it's not just us telling you what to do.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: No, definitely. I also, because it was a Shivam who showed me around wildlife sos and he, he had a friend, I know he had a fun story. We were, it was actually over lunch, we were just sitting and you know, having our like RO and D. It was lovely.
And I mentioned obviously I was like, oh yeah, I know like the bear group. And he's like Jay. He's like Jay. I remember Jay and he told me a good story about you and him.
[00:17:21] Speaker C: Yeah, he did.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:17:23] Speaker C: Leads into one of the other things that's so important to me in my life. Like it's dogs. And you know, Shivam who works like, you know, with wildlife. So he was education at the time he was there and we had, we had hosted the conference. We were exhausted. We're now doing our post, you know, conference trips and stuff and we were actually. It was, what is, it was a dream of mine. I told you, I'm a big cat guy. But they had arranged for us to go to Rantham Board India for tiger safaris.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's one of the best places.
[00:17:54] Speaker C: And one. So one of the things I have been to Africa many times leading eco trips and for whatever else. I've been around the world everywhere you go, I mean we have the same problem here in the U.S. feral dogs, pet problems, whatever else. And in India it was interesting to me because there's like all these animals like that are basically feral running around and nobody's hurting them. But there's limited resources and what can help them. So nobody really adverse like, you know, deliberately treats them poorly. Like dogs in the street, like people will feed them off their food and carts. But then like, you know, if one's injured or whatever else, there's not really, unless there's a rescue organization, people aren't going to go out of their way to care. And I learned in Vietnam where dogs are a food source and in different places around the world, like there's only so much that I can do because I'm a dog rescuer. I'm also vice president of Mid America Rottweiler rescue. I have been for many years. I'm specialized in Rottweilers and trench bulldogs, in behavior and rehoming and whatever. And it's been tough for me sometimes. And the only time in my life and travels I could not walk away from a situation that I saw was with Shivam. We were on a break. We had our tiger safari in the morning. Thank goodness I got to see tigers because we went on a hike up to that temple that's there, 500 steps up and up the top.
I don't know how it got there. I don't know how long it had been there. But we found this poor, very nearly dead little dog.
And I made it 20 steps past and that was it. Burst into tears, turned around. Siobhan stayed with me. The rest of our group kept on. There's a whole story I could tell you which could be its own podcast in and of itself, but rescuing that little dog, getting her down, dodging the what felt like a Japanese game show of like the gauntlet of challenges to get that little dog back cleaned up, start taking care of her. Everybody that was there with me, I was with the folks from Wildlife, SOS and Gita. She also has the Friendico sanctuary. She mobilized, we started getting supplies. That was the end of my tiger safaris. The rest of my days in Ranthambore was caring for this little dog and staying with her.
We got her to Gita Sanctuary, driving across, not with her, but then three other puppies we saved too. Four adults, four dogs. Driving across India to get to the Friendico sanctuary and through some other organizations that Friendico had partnered with or whatever else, Shivam named her Gowry. I actually asked to name the little dog Shiva after his honor and he asked if we could name her G. Instead he wove her a little harness out of one of his scarf he ripped into strips and that like he won me over 100% completely as a fan for the rest of my life with how he helped me.
And they rehabilitated Gowry. She grew out. Most of the dogs in India are very smooth coated little pharaoh dogs. She looks like a little sloth bear. She has this crazy black, thick fur coat. I have to find a picture somewhere to show you. One day a year later, we were able to actually arrange to fly her and bring her over here. She stayed with Mindy, one of our directors and a friend of Minnie, years in the Bearcare group and her husband for a couple weeks till I was testifying in a federal case.
Was able to visit them nearby. And then I flew back and Gallery has been with us ever since, an integral member of our family. So that is. I'm one of those dodo, you know, welfare rescue stories of the dog that was one step near death. I'll show you before and after one day, Philip. But it, it is literally that dramatic. And she's been part of our family ever since. And Shivam, that is, he didn't tell me no. And he was there to help me at a time where I needed to make a difference.
And I'll never forget that.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Oh, it's amazing.
[00:21:38] Speaker C: I can't every day. So.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'm looking forward to, well, next, next conference then. See what happens.
[00:21:44] Speaker C: See, right.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I guess that's our board.
[00:21:48] Speaker C: Our board is not going to keep letting me rescue dogs every conference. I will tell you that.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Can't say no.
I mean, I guess that's my sort of little segue then because, I mean, looking ahead, there are plans for virtual webinars, at least one or two this year.
And the next one is planned in June entitled Navigating Emotional, Social and Logistical Transitions for Bears and Managed Care.
[00:22:12] Speaker C: It's a mouthful.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Would you like to say a little bit about that?
[00:22:16] Speaker C: So with the virtual workshops, it's really tough coming up with a big conference theme. We try to go with something that we know we can bring in a variety of people, whether it's field researchers, keepers, sanctuary rehabilitators, that they're going to be able to provide a wide scope of information and perspectives. With the webinars, we try to be a little bit more kind of focused. Many of us are active with other organizations. We have two board members who are active in the AZA bear tag. And so we start, you really get to see and on our website like, or on our Facebook page, like common questions and themes that pop up a lot, like nutrition, denning. And then there are kind of sometimes key hot topics that come up and it might be because of issues that have popped up in legislation or roadside zoos. And so we try to pick on a topic that is going to be poignant, meaningful, but that we know we can support and provide some resources across like a range of experienced professionals and caregivers. And so that's, that's where we come up with these topics. And this one is going to be kind of focused on like, you know, weaning when maybe it's been inadvertent or involuntary due to, you know, loss of a mother or separation for other reasons and the impact that that may have on the mom, the cub, the caregivers and whatever else. And so it's one of those things that's really poignant and you can tie in all sorts of number of topics. Nutrition of those cubs, care of the cubs, dealing with trauma, how do you provide care, how do you mitigate social.
And there's a variety of things within that. But then they become really. Even though it's still focused, the topics and the techniques we learn are still applicable across the board and not just to bears, but all these other species that people come in that they also care for. Because it's pretty rare that someone comes to a conference or a webinar unless they're from one of these places, like an Animals Asia Bear Sanctuary, that they only take care of bears. Usually caregivers have responsibility for other species. And so these behavior based husbandry techniques and approaches are also can be applicable, you know, across the board to other species. And so while we'll focus on something like weaning and how it may be impactful, there's behavior training, enrichment, relationship building, nutrition, environment, there's all sorts of things around that topic that are easily applied across the board. Does that make sense? Yeah.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: When you say about other species, I mean there's never a rescue center. You don't really have control always over what animals are brought to you.
So you could be just, you're going up, you're going about your day and then suddenly it's like, here's a slow loris we've just found. Or I remember one time someone was like rang ahead and said, oh, we're bringing an orangutan. And they brought. And then when they actually turned up, it was a proboscis monkey. It was just like the person who'd ran, person who rang, didn't know, couldn't tell the difference.
[00:25:13] Speaker C: I guess that's, that's not uncommon. Like it happens in zoos and sanctuaries. I promise you. I don't know if you've had this experience, but everywhere I've lived in the US I have had this once. People know that you either work at a zoo or you're veterinary medical professional or you have something to do with animals.
Every puppy, kitten, dog, bird, chicken, goose, rabbit, whatever ends up on your doorstep or people call you or they come over or they need you to help them get the bats out of their house or whatever else. And so you really do end up with a wide range of unexpected even like with dog rescue. And you never know what you're going to get those animals histories are unique and different. And even if they two different bears that came from the same bio facility and the same treatment are still going to have very different resiliency approaches. Healing, growth. Dogs are that way, bears are that way. It really is. It's just being prepared for those eventualities and trying to figure out how to do best by each animal.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Well, yeah, like they say, I mean, every animal is an individual, got their own personality.
And you have to tailor the care to that animal, that individual.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Well. And you know what? It's not even just the care. I use this as an example. So we'll go back to my giant pandas in Atlanta. We had melon or Melon was the cub we had. I apologize. It was Lun. Lun was the female and yangyang was the male. Those two bears had such completely different perspectives. Yang Yang was a mama's boy. There was one keeper who had babied him his whole life. And so he, like wine, got his way. He was spoiled with her. Lun Lun was more independent.
But even when I was training them, they learned differently. Like, we know that people have different personalities. Like I alluded to it when you and I were chatting. I am terrible with dates. And I don't. I'm spatial memory. Like, if I had to migrate, I would be dead because I can never navigate. I lose my car in a parking lot, but I can triangulate. I recognize like, you know, formations or landmarks. Like, we all have our skills in how we learn. And I'm very. I want to read and then I want to do. I want to try it while I'm working my way through it. And animals are the same way. Loon, Loon, Yang Yang. We call it shaping when you're doing training, positive reinforcement, step by step by step. I'm going to teach you this behavior. Then we're going to move on to the next one that's a little more complex. Yang learned by shaping. It was like little behavior, next little behavior to get to his goal. That was how most animals, most people learn is by steps.
Lun Loon did not work that way. She would get frustrated, she would get angry. She would bleed at you like a goat. Pandas make these weird noises. If they're upset, they're like. And it's like sounds like a goat and it comes out of a bear. And she'd bang on things and walk off in a huff. She was a light bulb learner. Like, you would work with her and you would have to come at her with 15 different approaches to try to say, this is what I want you to learn. And then all of a sudden it was like the cartoons, you know, where they're like, whoa. And the light bulb pops on above their head and. And once you made that connection with her, she never forgot it, but she learned differently. Like, you can't even approach animals with the same kind of care when they're individuals. You have to be able to recognize that each one is an individual and you have to be able to adjust. And not everybody sees that, understands that, or it's difficult to help them understand that they have to make the time for it because we have. There's always deadlines. They have to be out by this time, fed by this time. And it's really helping people restructure how they approach the care of bears to be able to accomplish, you know, what we. What we do with them. Yeah.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: It's like you've got to take that step back and obviously, and remove your own personal biases, I suppose, and just observe the animal and meet them. Meet them where they're at.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: I think that's like. And when you've been somewhere like Wildlife sos, the AGRA facility, or, you know, Animals Asia, like, you go, and there's like, oh, my God, there's bears everywhere. But every one of them is an individual. They respond differently to their environment, to other bears, to foods, to their caregivers.
Every single one is unique and you have to be able to adjust and to deal with that to be successful.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Just speaking of the virtual webinars, just getting a little bit back onto the workshops.
[00:29:17] Speaker C: On topic.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: On topic. Yeah, people can learn about these on the. We've got the website, the Bearcare Group website. I'll put some links in the show notes. There's obviously the Facebook that people can check out on the social media channels, further updates and obviously as well as well, ways to get involved if they wish and offer support. Because like they. You can sponsor a conference, you can visit the online gift shop. I know that.
[00:29:39] Speaker C: Yeah, you can volunteer, you can help, you can. There's like, tasks, there's planning things, there's helping with, like, you know, auctions for fundraising. There's any, like any organization, there's a wide variety of things you can assist with. And even if it's just, you know what, I want to sponsor a break at the next conference or, you know, we have board member, their family just sends us a sponsorship amount every year that we're grateful for. They have no desire to come to a conference or Whatever else, they are just supportive of our work and our efforts and we are thankful for that every time.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: Indeed. And like the next in person workshop is planned. Just stop me if I say too much is we're going to do it in Japan. Speaking of, speaking of Japanese, that is the goal.
[00:30:19] Speaker C: That was Elsa's.
Elsa's before we lost Elsa. Her last true goal after working, you know, with the folks in Vietnam was she wanted to go to Japan to be able to work with and try to improve conditions and care for the barriers under human there. So we've been working towards that. There's a lot of logistics. There's a pandemic that happened.
There's shifts in leadership in different countries.
There's a lot of variables involved in planning a conference in a foreign country that none of us live in requires. We have a partner organization, which we do. We're working with Wild Welfare and yeah, it's, it's a lot. So our goal is to. That we've had to bump it, you know, the time frame a little bit. But we're really hoping that that can be another one of those targeted workshops to work with some organizations there in Japan and that'll be our next instance altogether. Our last one was in Oakland, California and we had a great time.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean I'm planning, I'm planning my trip to Japan so. Better happen.
[00:31:20] Speaker C: Well, it's a big plan for everybody, for all of us. So.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also had. Well, I feel like I've had so many questions for you. I hope it's all right. Hope you don't mind.
[00:31:29] Speaker C: You are fine. Fire away.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: Well, I've got a few questions. Kind of wrap things up a little bit. I wondered about misconceptions about bears that you found yourself addressing with people either in, in your role.
Well, in any of your roles I suppose really.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: I think bears are one of those things everybody recognizes and likes.
It's interesting when you get into like kind of the sanctuary in the advocacy world, everybody wants to save and rescue big cats. It's tough to get the same support for bears.
I think one of the things that people don't.
Two things. One thing that I always teach to everybody who is a bear caregiver, a bear is not a bear. Like a bear is not just a bear. You've worked with little sun bears, arboreal, super clever tree climbing tropical bears. They see the world and interact with it so completely differently from a polar bear that is patient and stares at a hole in the ice for hours at a time and faces different conditions.
So most people just, oh, it's a bear. But a bear is not just a bear. They're so different.
They're what, what they experience. And then the challenges that they face wherever they come from, whether it's here in the United States or, you know, in Borneo, they really do face a lot of challenges in human conflict.
I think the other piece of it is bears are incredibly sensitive and complex species.
We truly advocate for treating them like great apes, like primates. They experience the world. They, they do everything, everything. Their senses that they interact with, they're complex in how they think, how they build, how they will use tools and do different things. They are unbelievably complex animals with high seasonality, cyclicity to their actions, and they want to do things and interact with the world. For me, bears are up there with primates and elephants for the level of complexity they should receive.
And they have historically not received that kind of just level of perception and care, whether it's within, you know, zoos, sanctuaries, whatever else around the world, or just by the general public. I think people just sort of take them for granted and don't realize how amazing and special they actually really are. And they are.
I liken them Rottweilers. As a dog breed, I have always found to be resilient. You can pull a Rottweiler a lot of times out of a really tough situation and they want to be better. And bears are very often like that. They can come from the most miserable surroundings, locked in a little tiny cage with bile milked out of them for years.
And you put them in the world and they're going to try to experience life. They want to do better, they want to do, be more, they want to be bears. And there's a resilience there that I, is inspiring for anybody, but I think that most people don't really realize actually comes out of that species. And I think that's something that's important and I would love, you know, people to understand and learn more about. You can do that by reading else's books because Bearless Story will definitely give you that impression.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: No, definitely. And the thing about bears, I've, I've always found is they're very, they're very honest creatures. You know, there's no deception there.
[00:34:38] Speaker C: No, you get what you get.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like I've sometimes I say to people that they're essentially fun loving creatures, really. It's just the like and the, when they, if you see them and they're in a bad situation.
They're obviously, they're not reacting well to it. That's, well, that's because like it's not their fault. A lot of the time they've been taken, right. You know, they've, they've seen, maybe they've seen their mother killed and then they've been taken and raised by humans and shoved in a small cage somewhere and.
[00:35:04] Speaker C: Then they've just, they very much do experience trauma, the long term physical effects and psychological effects of it. And that becomes up to us as caregivers to help them through.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I also had best country you visited due to bear work.
[00:35:18] Speaker C: Oh, due to bear work. So, okay, well, so my favorite place in the world that I generally go has been, it's been over years, the wild. There's something about Africa and Kenya and stuff that I absolutely love. But for me, my best overall trip for bear work, I mean Romania, it was borscht.
Vietnam, we got to do some great stuff. I really enjoyed our experience in India. We got to visit a couple of their different facilities.
We worked so closely. Wildlife sos. They have been supporters of the bear care group from years back coming to our conferences. We got to learn a lot more about what was going on, not only for what they're doing for the bears, but what they're doing for the community and conservation and everything. And they also do so much more. I was lucky to go get to go and see the elephant sanctuary as well. Like, they don't just do bears. They apply that lens of care and advocacy and welfare to so many of them that I just really had a, a great experience there. I even got to go and visit their little tiny hidden. Most people don't know about leopard sanctuary that they have off out near Pune.
And it is really off the beaten path where they're still really trying to take these animals from really tough situations, human conflict and, and do the best for them that they can.
So yeah, my experience with the wildlife SOS team and in India, all the teaching, the learning, rescuing a dog, all those things, it made it really, really amazing and wonderful while we were there.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: Oh, that's true. I mean, yeah, their elephant hospital, it is quite awe inspiring when you get there. And it's, it's almost like a small hangar for like a plane or you think like a plane would fit in there. This is where the elephants arrive. We put them here and then they've got this hydrotherapy pool all set up. It's just, it's, it's amazing. And you just say you want all you kind of think I wish all.
[00:37:07] Speaker C: The elephants inspiring and awe inspiring. Yeah.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: I want all the elephants that, you know to come here and receive that level of care and attention.
[00:37:16] Speaker C: Correct. Well, we had such a good time there. We did. We did training, we did enrichment, we did a workshop. Their team was engaged with us. And it wasn't just the caregivers, it was the educators, it was the managers, it was everybody that was involved. And so.
And even. Even at the base, as we're trying to work like that, the sanctuary, while we were trying to work with bears, they have all these other. Other species there. And then you're dealing with the native wildlife. There's like, you know, monkeys and baboons that are like, you know, coming in and taking over because of the food and everything involved. So it's really learning about all those challenges that you wouldn't even think about. Like, nobody in the United States is worried about, like, you know, a troop of baboons or monkeys coming over and taking over their zoo and eating all their bears food while they're busy caring for them. So it was really an interesting perspective, you know, for all of us to see too.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: That's.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: That's quite funny because I. I've had that exact experience where when you're doing scatter feeding for. For animals in an enclosure, you're like, oh, you have to be. Keep mindful about.
[00:38:11] Speaker C: You have to compensate for the volume of food you give.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm like, I'm gonna. You have to actually put a little bit more out because the bears will do their thing where they kind of like slowly work their way around. But meanwhile, the monkeys or the, like the macaques have. They've already climbed on top of the platforms and they've like grabbed whatever it is and they're just going away. And of course, because they all. They all learn when feeding time is as well. So they just turn up.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: Yep. And they know how to dodge. They know how to dodge a bear. Yep.
[00:38:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:36] Speaker C: No, I get it. Like, so it's interesting. So here in the US we deal with like, minor pest species or like sparrows or starlings or squirrels and stuff. Like, no. Get a deal with a whole troop of primates coming in and taking over and something. So, yeah, it was, it was. That was. That was. I think that was overall, like. I think one of the kind of most overwhelming experiences and in a good way that I. I have had.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Oh, that's great. Is there. Are there any species you haven't actually worked with that you would want to.
[00:39:02] Speaker C: I mean, There, there's. I have done insects, amphibians, fish, all the way up to. I've got, I've done a lot of work with like, you know, elephants and stuff as well. The one that I always wanted to work with and that I never have in my life, I've met them Cetaceans I was never able to work with like, you know, dolphins and killer whales and, you know, kind of growing up we all saw like the SeaWorld performances and whatever else that was just, it always seemed really interesting and it's a species, that species or like, you know, I just, I've never been able to work with, you know, the cetaceans and the whales in any capacity. And I always thought that that was something I've not had the chance to do that I would be interested in.
But that was, that was not where life took me for an opportunity. So maybe someday, you know, we'll get there, but.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'll be fair. I will. I'll let you know when it comes out because I would recommend that. The chat I had with this lady Femke who runs Jakarta Animal Aid Network, I've got like a two part chat with her and her story about when they freed these dolphins in Bali. It's just, it's one of those ones, you know, it's, it's, it's really sad and inspirational at the same time. But just hearing their story, I think you'd be really interested in that.
I'll let you know when it is out.
[00:40:14] Speaker C: Excellent. Thank you.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: Kind of wondered as well, is there anything you believe about animal welfare, welfare now that you didn't believe earlier in your careers?
[00:40:23] Speaker C: You know, I, one of the things I learned was that, you know, early on was that animals are individuals and you treat them like. I just, I naturally kind of adapt to that. But like I said, I was working at a small roadside facility. It had been around for years. It was what I knew at the time.
Like, you know, I did everything, I did a lot. I did things I really shouldn't, couldn't see myself doing now. Still have all my hands and fingers and whatever else, but was in some situations that now, you know, there's a recognition impact that we have on animals. Like, and, and one of those things that's kind of evolved over time recognizing and it, the key words are choice and control. But what they basically come down to is the agency that we give each individual animal under our care to make choices in their own environment.
And we under, we, we control those choices. What habitat they can Be in what room to be in, what toys they get, what food they get. Like, we control all.
When we can look at ways to change how we manage and care for them so that they can have more options, give them more stuff.
We know that they thrive and not just bears, but any species. And so it's really working to understand. Like, you know, it used to be like, I'm doing a great job, like kind of that old school thing. Like, I was a good keeper. I was taking care of them every day. How does that evolve? So you're helping the animals care for themselves and understanding their needs instead of telling them what their needs are. And that was a shift in perspective that was years in coming. And now I'm staunchly on the other side of, you know, what is this animal experiencing? And it pops up in really weird ways. And I tell this story and I think people think I'm crazy sometimes, but I really do try to think about this. And it was in. I was in Omaha and I think we were actually. I was running somewhere to plan something for our conference that we were having at the kind of last minute because we weren't able to have Vietnam that year with Elsa's health. And I remember there was a back kind of cut through and I looked up ahead and on my brain I popped up and there was a little. There's a little divot in the asphalt where I was watching a little chunk that was missing and it collected some water. And there was a sparrow that was just having a bath and it was having the best time. It was having the best little bath in this thing. It was right in my path. And I made a conscious decision in my brain. And I remember, I'm like, you know what if I'm going to walk 10ft out of my way and around this bird, it's going to not trigger its fight and flight. And it can keep enjoying its bath. Will it fly away and come back? Probably. But it's not any effort for me to walk around and not disturb it and let it continue enjoying what it's doing. And I recognize that that is on a far end of a spectrum for choices. Is everybody going to make that kind of choice all the time? No, they're not. But it shaped the difference for how I look at, you know, animals, people, whatever else is like, how can I let them be what they are and do what they want and facilitate that in ways that are. Is going to encourage it that, you know, may not have a lot of cost to me or whatever else that I'm willing to, I'm willing to give up and willing to do. And that's just, that's how I kind of look at everything now. And that was not early on in my career. It's care. This is what you do, this is when you do it, this is how you do it. And it's really changed and evolved to that response of who are you and what can I do for you approach that Elsa taught us.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: As you said as well, you've recently founded your own consulting service and taken over sort of carrying on Elsa's work. I was going to say this is your chance to kind of plug that if people are interested or want to get in touch.
[00:44:00] Speaker C: So I'm going to, I'm working through and I've got a basic website, not my forte and strength, but I've been consulting for years and I just kind of did it as me. This is still me, but I'm doing it as an llc.
Its behavioral and environmental solutions, B and D Solutions. That was originally like, you know, what Elsa had called hers when we all knew her and loved her. And it was again in memoriam and legacy and honor of her. And the goal is it's a wide range. I've got 30 plus years of doing everything from that individual animal care and training up to developing policies, procedures. How do you prevent or plan on addressing larger scale things?
Advocacy, expert care. So if somebody's like, hey, we need an interim leader. We want to teach our staff how to train and build these relationships with our animals. We would like you to come in and help us with site inspections as we try to improve for USDA or a type of accreditation or just to overall improve, I'm there to help people however I can. And while bears and big cats are at the core and the heart of it, I have done so much and had so much experience with such a variety of species.
I'm not going to put myself in a situation if somebody calls and says, hey, we really need to help you, like with water quality in this aquarium. I'm not that guy. I'll help you find that guy. But that is not me. I'm going to make sure that I have the skills and the abilities that I can help somebody, an organization, a person, an animal out and then I'll be there for them in whatever capacity I can. And whether that's I'm lucky enough that it pulls me to Borneo or it's one state over, like when I did some, you know, recent circus investigation, I'm there for it.
[00:45:36] Speaker B: Well, yeah, you have the depth and breadth of your experience is amazing. For me anyway, I'm just, I think I could listen to you all day just talking about the various experiences you've had or listen to your approach to animals and their care. It's very inspiring.
[00:45:52] Speaker C: Well, and Elsa, she, when she, when she was Elsa Polson as B and E Solutions she and she was like, you know, co founder, president of the BearCare Group, she really was able to dedicate a ton of time to the Bearcare Group in our conferences as we were nascent and developing.
But she was also filling in like there were so many around the world. Like Elsa only did bears and it took her to Romania and South America and all these places.
And so I'm really with like being able to help with bears and expand in that we're still going to, I'm going to be a resource because we one of those things you run into at every conference and whatever the Bearcare Group we run into a lot of places saying they need resources, they need help. Could somebody like talk to us or consult with us. And in since we've lost Elsa, with everybody having full time roles, it's really challenging to be able to help kind of fill that void when with Elsa's loss. And so I'm hoping now that I'm going to be able to again not fill in her shoes but be able to step up and be a resource that's been missing for a while. Not just for people in our BearCare group, our membership or that would look to our group for how could we help them, but to all these organizations I've built bridges with and relationships with over the years. And so I'm really, I'm really hoping that you know, all I'll find some footing there and be able to really do some, do some good work and make a difference.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll be interested to see how that all pans out. Okay, I've got a couple more questions. What would you like the next generation of animal care professionals to do better than your generation?
[00:47:21] Speaker C: That's an easy answer for me and it's not one I think that most people would expect.
Recognize where you can make a difference. So quite bluntly, I have been like being in the zoo and accredited zoo industry for as many years as I have while partnering with groups like the PETA foundation, hsu. They're now one humane world for animals ALDF most when you go on forums, when you go to conferences, you talk to people. We've seen it like I, we dealt with this at some of our Conferences where we really had to shape, reshape people's preconceived notions and perceptions, like Elsa did. There's a divide. It's an us versus them.
Are there different philosophies? Are there different approaches that maybe either side and sanctuaries can be the same way, that they don't necessarily see eye to eye? Probably, yes. But their goal, everybody's goal, is still to be there and to help animals and the people that care for them. And I really would want the next generation of, whether it's zookeepers, rescuers around the world, just online influencers and advocates or, you know, sanctuary volunteers, recognize that every one of these fears. I use a Zen diagram or a Venn diagram for this, you know, because there's a tiny little nexus where, like, you know, advocacy meets accredited zoological care versus sanctuary approaches. And there's not a lot of overlap there. There's only a few individuals that will really work to help everybody as best they can.
In my goal and my hope would be to grow that. So when something comes up and we watch the Tiger King and everybody's like, oh, God, somebody should do something about this.
It's not always the PETA foundation or HSUS that step up. Like, when you read Bearless Story, those are two groups that are going to pop up in there, and the individuals that were involved working with AZA groups and zoos. I want the younger generation to realize they can make a difference. They should rethink how they perceive these other organizations and look for the commonalities as opposed to why they're different.
It's not something I was taught. It was something I learned, and Elsa was a huge key component of that. But I still see that division, that us versus them mentality so much, even now in 2026. And I really wish that that would change, and I'm hoping that I can help that.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: Oh, thanks, Jay.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: I feel like I'm like, oh, I want to say. I want to have something to say back. But I'm just kind of like, well, yeah, I agree. It's just. That's, like.
[00:49:49] Speaker C: That's acceptable.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
Was there anything else you wanted to mention?
[00:49:56] Speaker C: I think we've covered the gamut of it. I mean, I just, you know, I really. I hope that really everybody, you know, like, whether it's bear carrier, what I've chosen to do with, you know, kind of my careers over times, what we do with dogs every day, just, it's. It's the stewardship piece. Like, I really hope if anybody reading Elsa's Books, coming to a bear care conference, hearing you and I talk, if they take something away from this, and I get it, it again, it's that whole sounds cheesy. Oh, every person makes a difference. We hear about carbon footprint, we know about the reduce, reuse, recycle. But you do make a difference. You make a difference in an animal's life every day, whether you're choosing to or not, with how you use your money, how you use your voice, and just remembering that there are people that are dedicating their lives to that that, you know, could use your support and help in some of those things.
It's an underlying undercurrent. I know that was redundant right there, but, you know, stewardship is everybody's job. We're all here, we're all, again, cheesy. We're all on the same planet and we're sharing it with all these other species. It's not just ours, but we're the ones that have.
And so it's our job to make sure we're managing it and stewarding it correctly. It's my belief and I just really hope that we can impart that. And even if it's one tiny piece and a person makes one tiny little change in decision where it's like, you know, oh, am I going to walk around a sparrow having a dust bath? No, maybe not. But can I think about the impact that, you know, maybe something has? So I'm going to make sure there's not a product I'm buying that, you know, has exotic animal or, you know, a cite Appendix 1, you know, sticker violation to it. I can make those differences and changes. I can donate and give a little bit of money to animals, Asia or Wildlife, sos. I can help make a difference.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah, if everyone. It's incremental, isn't it? Like everyone does those little things. It has a snowball effect.
[00:51:41] Speaker C: And I didn't, I didn't start here. I am a very different person. Like you asked, I'm a very different person 30 some years later now than when I was in my early 20s when I started.
It's incremental. You don't see the change coming, but you accept it, you embrace it and you look for where else you can grow.
Yeah.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: Oh, lovely. Oh, thanks, Jay.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Well, again, I'm like, oh, I wish I had, I had something equally as eloquent and, you know, incisive to say, well, I think you've hit the mail on the head.
[00:52:12] Speaker C: Well, thank you. I appreciate hearing that.
[00:52:14] Speaker B: I appreciate that feedback Anytime.
Have you, have you got much on today?
[00:52:20] Speaker C: We're, we're getting a little bit tiny warmer. We're gonna get the dogs outside, you know, kind of relax. There's some few things online I gotta do. There's actually a new paper that came out that I, I wanna, you know, somebody alluded to in one of the new research paper that came out that I want to take a look at. So, yeah, gonna do some homework, gonna do a little bit of, you know, outreach to places to see if there's some work out there and prep for the job I got coming up and then go take care of my dogs as the little individuals that they are indeed lovely. And I'll give Gowrie an extra hug for you.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: And Siobhan, please do. And don't leave out the other dogs. Get them on for me as well.
[00:52:53] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: Thank you once again to Jay and thank you everyone for listening. I hope that this in some way honors Elsa's Legacy and the BearCare group. I mean, this all ties back to my desire to showcase people and organizations that are out there making a difference.
But I also want to stress it's not just about that. As we basically just said, I believe everyone can make a difference everywhere through small changes and working together, focusing on commonalities rather than differences, through compassion and understanding. And hopefully this in some small way helps people recognize that we'll be back.
But until then, make sure you let the sparrows dance.
The Bear Den. The American Bear association podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubley. The music was composed by React Music.
Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Hauserman, Bill Lee, Clary Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka, Ross Coyer, and Angie Page.
[00:54:01] Speaker B: You can find out more about the.
[00:54:03] Speaker A: American bear
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[00:54:51] Speaker C: Sam.
