Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello everyone and welcome again to the Bear Den. For those of you joining us for the first time, this podcast is about the American Bear association and the Vinci Wildlife Sanctuary, but not exclusively. We'll talk about just about anything to do with bears and wildlife. And I'm very excited for you to listen to today's episode where I sit down and chat to Stan Tequila. He's been visiting the sanctuary for more than 20 years, leading photo workshops and is a renowned author, photographer, educator, naturalist. And why listen to me talk about him when you can listen to him yourself? Let's go.
There is a place in the remote northwards of Minnesota, North America. It's located near the town of ore, population approximately 300. Outside this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side. It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vince Shooty Wildlife Sanctuary, run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short. The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife through education, observation and experience.
I'm your host, Philip Stubley and welcome to the Bear Den.
All right, so I was talking with my brother the other day and I mentioned, oh, I'm going to be chatting to Stan Tequila. And he kind of gave me a funny look. So I felt like I had to clarify. That's tequila with a kid, right? Because I think he was thinking of tequila with a queue and I just wondered, I was gonna ask, I was like, does that happen a lot? Or like, indeed. Are you a fan? Are you a fan of the drink?
[00:01:29] Speaker B: I, I'm not, I'm not much of a drinker. No. So unfortunately the only tequila I think I've ever had has been in margaritas. But that's, you know, maybe once a year type of thing.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: One way to have it. That's why when you're, when you're down for spring break, I'm sure.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah, not, not a lot of spring break going on with me. Yeah.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: So where. Whereabouts are you talking to us at the minute?
[00:01:52] Speaker B: Talking to you from Minnesota. Minnesota.
I'm just west of the Twin Cities area, so it's a kind of a far, what would you call it, like a fourth ring suburb, you know, way the heck out west of the Twin Cities.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Oh, nice. And you've just returned from leading a photography trip to Yellowstone and I just wanted to sort of ask how that went and what you saw this time of year.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Yeah, so I, what I do is I lead about six photography tours a year to different parts of the, of the world. And the one I just finished up is I did three weeks in Yellowstone. So it's winter time in Yellowstone so it's January and February and we had quite, quite a good trip.
Interestingly, the groups that I have for the Yellowstone stuff are all people from either the UK or someplace in Europe and and so it's really fun to show them my part of the world and the different things that we experience because things like the extreme cold temperatures are, you know, kind of a new experience for a lot of people.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Did you see, did you see many wolves?
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Yes, saw many wolves. So I had two different groups. The first group didn't see any wolves. Well we saw some wolves but they were, you know, the next mountain over. So they were, you know, micro dots on the horizon type of thing and you could see them and you can hear them. So it was, you know, satisfying in that way that you could see them but no photographic opportunities. And then on the last day we are on the, in the interior of the park on these, what's called snow coaches. These snow coaches are modified vans or like a bus that have gigantic tires, wheels on them that help plow through the snow. And so we're way out into the interior of the park in Hayden Valley and right at daybreak first thing in the morning and we came across six members of a wolf pack and they were walking by us so we were able to stop, get out, set up, photograph. And as they went by us one of them actually sat down about 130 to 150 yards away from us and sat down and started howling right in front of us. So the, in, yeah, the entire encounter lasted maybe 7, 8 minutes which is long. You know when you, these close encounters with wolves are generally measured in minutes because you know they, they move on and they don't want anything to do with people and but we got some great opportunities. There was a lot of celebr and a lot of, you know, after they left it was, you know, a lot of hugs and tears and things like that because we had this great opportunity to see these, you know, iconic animals of Yellowstone up close and be able to capture some good images with them. So then that was on the very last day. So it was like phew, you know, just because everybody comes a long way to, to you know, have this experience and it's disappointing when they don't get it. And so we, you know, it was like mission accomplished. So we're good. Then the second group on the second to last day we we had an idea where the wolves are at but hadn't seen them all week. We, we were doing a seven day stretch on the interior. Five days of no wolves at all. And so that gets to be a. I mean these are long days. They're like 10 hour days and 10 days of looking for wolves and nothing. And the second to last day, had a hunch where they might be. Thought we'd try for it. Was able to get right into the area that we're hoping to be.
And right away in the morning, it was 8:15 in the morning. Came across about 20 of the wolves in a area they call the Biscuit Basin or. And it is where they.
A lot of thermal geothermal activity goes on. So there's you know, steam and smoke and boiling water and all that stuff. There's a herd of bison there and the wolves were hunting the bison. And so we were able to, we got in on that and we had them for just under an hour where the wolves were crossing a river, howling, going back and forth and approaching the bison, trying to find, you know, a, a.
I hate, you know, how do you put this lightly? A candidate, you know. So basically what's, what these wolves are looking for is injury, sick, infirmed, you know, you know, it's somebody who's not doing well.
You know, they're very weak, they're very small, these types of things that they're going for. So this went on for about an hour. Nothing. They, they could not isolate out anything. We, we in that hour. I captured maybe a little over 5,000 images in an hour. So that's quite a bit. Meaning that there's a lot of action going on, a lot of different things happening.
They were coming up and crossing over this river and then crossing over the road that we were on. And so this went on for like I said, an hour. And it, that was, I mean your heart is pounding so hard and it's you know, high altitude so you're, you're having troubles breathing anyhow and the temperatures are well below zero Fahrenheit. And so it's just one of those cold and difficult situations. But it was such a great success. So the next day, which would have been the last day, headed right back into where we thought they might be. Ended up finding them again. And that day, on the last day we probably spent upwards of seven hours following them around. This is unprecedented. This is. They were visible to us for, for hour after hour after hour. And that was just such a.
One of those situations where it just doesn't Happen like that. And we again were able to capture them in a big group together as they were greeting each other. We got individuals, we got them howling, got them running through the snow. Deep, deep snow and they're running through the snow. So we got them, you know, bounding out of the snow and some great images were had for sure. That was a day in which we were there for so long that it's like, okay, we have to go to the bathroom, you know, the group. So it's like we have to load up in snow coach, leave the wolves, go find a bathroom and then come back to them. And at the, at the end of the day, about 4:00 when we, because we have to get out because it's getting dark, we have, we had to leave the wolves behind. That's, I mean that just doesn't ever happen. So it was a epic year for wolves in Yellowstone. And so these are the types of photo tours that you know that I, that I do, I do Yellowstone, I do a trip to Florida, I do Alaska, Costa Rica, things like that. And take people around to show them the wildlife and teach them how to photograph, you know, different ways of photographing these animals.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh no, I mean it sounds amazing. I mean it's a sort of, these are the sort of trips you can never plan them. So you get what you get given. And like you say eight minutes of wolves for that first trip. I guess like that would make it worthwhile, wouldn't it?
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Yes. Oh yeah, yeah. Eight minutes would be eight minutes. It's a success. Okay, that's like, oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Then a whole day where you're having to, you're having to leave the wolves.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that, that's, that's unheard of. That's one of those situations that you can't ever expect to happen again, you know. And, but it was, it was good. It really was. And I'm, I'm going through, I've, I have probably about 15, 000 image images just of wolves that I have to edit through right now. So that's, that's, that's what you caught me doing as I'm sitting at my desk editing, editing all these images. I think grand total was something close to 40, 000 images in three weeks.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Is that an average sort of total.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Or that's really high?
The foxes were amazing this year. Red foxes and Yellowstone were really good. And it's funny, you, this is how it is nature, just like with the sanctuary, you know, some days you, you get all these bears come in and other days you don't. Nature changes, nature's dynamic, nature's always in flux. And so this year the red foxes were amazing and the encounters in the interior with the wolves was amazing. But other years it's not. So every, every time it's different and there's of, excuse me, predicting or you know, setting up for anything like that. It just, it is what it is because that's what nature does.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Oh, indeed. So like, as you, as you've been talking about, obviously you've worn many hats in your sort of illustrious career. Obviously. Wildlife photographer, author, naturalist. Can you give us a snapshot of your background and introduce yourself a little bit?
[00:11:06] Speaker B: Sure, sure.
Let's see. I don't even know where to start. I've had a 40 plus year career in wildlife.
I'm, I guess I'm probably most known for my field guides and books. I've written over 200 books over the past 40 plus years and I do mainly field guides. So it's a how to identify books, how do I identify birds, mammals, trees, wildflowers, reptiles, amphibians, that, that type of thing. Plus I write a lot of other nature books. They, such as, you know, a look at bears for example, or a look at wolves or moose or you know, these types of iconic animals that people seem to be really attracted to. I've written books on eagles and owls and those types of things. So, so that's kind of what I'm known for. I also write a syndicated newspaper column. I've been writing that for about 35 years.
Unfortunately, the, I think the, the peak of newspapers has long since passed and they're, they're going away.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess it's an online, mostly online article now.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah, so yeah, I do an online article but I started with newspapers and that was a, that was a big deal for a long, very long time that's kind of been dying out. I do a number of radio shows and you know, that, that type of thing. Now I was also the director of a nature center. The nature centers are a, you know, environmental education place for the public to come to and have programs and learn about nature and things like that.
So it's a, I know probably in the UK it's not as common as they are here. Nature centers here are very, very common. We have quite a few of them and these are establishments where people, families, children, adults can come and attend different programs and learn about n nature here in the spring.
A big thing that all the nature centers do are Tap the maple trees to make maple syrup. And so you learn about that so families can come and learn about maple syrup or maybe astronomy or maybe, you know, learning about the stars and things. Or could be a birding trip. It could be anything like that. These are educational facilities oftentimes run by government agencies who know, provide public programs. So they're really a great resource for, for people to be able to get to.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: So. Yeah, like how exactly did you get into photography initially? Was there just. Was there a certain moment that happened or just a gradual thing or.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, photography for me is kind of a.
What is it? A.
A tool. A tool for trying to do. Accomplish what I want to accomplish. So early on I was probably, I can't remember a time in which I wasn't fascinated by nature. So even as a young boy, 10, 12 years old, nature is what I was interested in, period. I was interested in the science of nature.
And it was, it's always been something I thought that I, you know, wanted to have in my life. And even as a young, you know, even in my teens, I was writing nature books. So basically what I was doing was taking a three ring my school books, you know, taking a three ring binder and writing in them. And then I was trying to draw the things in nature that I was seeing, like tracks or a feather or whatever it may be. And I was trying to draw those, those things in there because I knew I wanted to write nature books, but I knew in order to write books you really had to be smart. And I knew I wasn't that smart. So I was like, I'll just do this for myself. And then later on, when the drawing became.
It wasn't a passion of mine, I was just like, I was just drawing it just to illustrate it. And then I really wanted to illustrate some other things. And so I started picking up a camera and just taking pictures of the things I wanted to write about. And I took those pictures and this is obviously, you know, a long, long time ago. And I would take those pictures and glue them, you know, a print and glue them into the book or tape them into the. Into this book that I would write about. And that's kind of started the whole thing. And then lo and behold, about 30, over 35 years ago, I.
I met a couple who was starting a new publishing company called Adventure Publications. And they were here in Minnesota, where I'm located. And they were good enough to take me on and take a chance on me and have me be one of their very first authors in their company. And I was thrilled and I got to realize my lifelong dream of writing my first nature book. And.
And then nobody said stop. So I just kept going, oh, wow, nice. Yeah. And here we are, you know, 40 years later and 200 plus books later and I'm still, still doing it and still enjoying the heck out of it. And so the photography really, you know, to get back to your original question, the photography was really something that was when the started to really go. I thought I really need to up my game with the photography to be able to provide the images for these books and be able to, you know, illustrate the things I wanted to illustrate. And that's basically, that's what I ended up doing.
Started out obviously with slide film and I was originally with like a Minoltic camera that I had purchased, used. And, and on a little side note, it's kind of funny, I recently got a. My publisher asked me to redo a book that I did. It was, I think it was the second book I ever did, so it's close to 40 years old. And they gave me the text and they said, we want you to redo this text, rewrite it, redo this whole thing, make it more regionalized, add this in, add that in, all these things. And they had all these just, you know, directions that they wanted me to do. And I was going through the book 75, it was 76, 000 words. So it's a, you know, fair amount. And I'm going through it, I'm reading and I'm correcting and all. And I'm noticing, I'm like, wow, man, there's so many typos here. I kept looking at it going, look at this typo. There's another one here. You know, And I was just. Didn't dawn on me, I was about halfway through the book when I, when I went, oh my gosh, I know why there's so many typos in this book. I wrote it on a typewriter.
It was all pre computer time. So I wrote the entire book on a typewriter on paper and turned in that paper to the publisher who then transcribed it into their system so that they could publish it. And so, so it was, it was kind of a aha moment, you know, that of, you know, there was no spell check or anything like that. And you, you know, I had, I basically wore out my dictionary looking up how to spell words and things like that when I was writing these books. And, and it kind of took me down a road of memory lane because you think about that, it's it was so different when I did that. I think I did my first four or five books on a typewriter. And. And then that's when computers started first coming about and being commercially available for, you know, the average person, the consumer, to pick one up. So. Anyhow. So that was just one of those.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: I was gonna ask, have you still got the typewriter?
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Oh, I don't. I wish I did.
I do have a lot of things from the original books and all that. Like, I have those pages that I used to write in and glue the pictures into. I still have all that stuff, but I would. Yeah. The typewriter I quickly adapted to computers.
And it was a fun thing to kind of evolve with it.
So I remember when I first got my first computer, my brother told me, gotta go out and get this computer, whatever the heck it was. I don't remember now. And I. I went out and got it and I brought it home, I set it up, I turned it on, and the thing made all these noises and things. And then it was a gray screen in the top left corner. It said C colon, backslash. And I was like, now what? What do I. What do I do? So I called up my brother and said, what do I do? He goes, he type in this command. And he told me something to type in, and I typed it in and something happened. I'm like, how the heck am I supposed to know what these commands are, you know, and how am I supposed to do this? And so I struggled with DOS for a while. And then after that, Windows came out. And then when Windows came out, then it was like, okay, now I think I can handle this. And so since then, I've kind of kept up with it. And I remember a couple of times early on, I finished up a book and having to get my publisher to. I wanted to get the. The book to them, that. The file to them. And so we had to wait till the end of the day, the end of the workday, at the end of the workday, because the phone lines would be cleared. Then I called her up and said, you know, are you ready? And she's like, yep, I'm all ready. So I hang up, my computer calls her computer, and then they would connect. And then I transferred the file over to her computer, and she received the file, and then it was done and hung up. And I called her back up. I remember, like, it was yesterday. And I called her up and said, did you get it? And she's like, I got it. And we couldn't believe it. We. How amazing. This was that we were able to transfer a whole book over by having my computer call her computer, you know. And so of course, nowadays, you know, with all the stuff we do it, there's no barriers now to being able to trans. I mean, look at, look at us right now with this.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Well, of course, yes, because oceans, no issues.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: I know. It's.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: I didn't even have to unplug my phone to do it.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yep, exactly. I know. So it's, it's been fun to see that those changes and it's, it really has been. I still love it. I still run to technology. I still enjoy the heck out of it. I still, I embrace all the technology that I can. I get to live latest greatest computers or, excuse me, cameras. I get the best cameras and I learn all the advanced features and holy mackerel, has, has photography changed over the years? Amazing advances from the days when we had, you know, film canisters, 36 exposures. You know, I always shot Fuji Chrome, which was a 200 ASA and if you were lucky, you could push it one stop and get 400. You know, we call it ISO now. Yeah. And, and nowadays shooting 400 ISO is like, I mean, you'd hardly ever do it. I mean, because a lot of times you're shooting in very low light situations and I remember plenty of times where photographing even black bears where you couldn't photograph because it was just too dark, you know. And these days with 12,000 ISO, you have no problems photographing those types of things. So the photography business has changed absolutely dramatically over the years too. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Well, I was going to say on that note, like what, what sort of pro tips would you give to someone just sort of starting out like the essential piece of kit one shouldn't, you know, be without.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: That's, that's an interesting one because in order boils down to Philip, it's, it's, it's money.
It's like it's what you can afford.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: That is, that's the bottom line. Because the, the, the equipment these days is so darn good. It is.
It's shocking how good it is. It really is because you can capture images that you can never capture before. And these days, here's an example of it, they have now on most of the mirrorless cameras, they all have a pre capture on them. So as long as you have the, the shutter button depressed halfway down, it'll go back in time. So like if you're waiting for a fox to jump or a bird to fly away and you want to catch that moment in which it's taking off or jumping or whatever like that. Nowadays you just hold your button down halfway and be focused on the, on the, on the animal, whatever it is. And then as soon as it goes, you're never fast enough. As a, as a human, we're never fast enough to push down the button when they're flying away or jumping or whatever like that. But what it'll do, what the camera will do, is it'll go back in time a half a second or a full second and take all those pictures that it was kind of caching and then write them to your card and you've got the event almost a full second before it happens. And then through the whole thing too. So the, the, the photography. Yeah, I know. Right, right. It's. It's truly amazing. It. They even do that on the video side. So on the video side you can do that where it'll Pre capture like 4 to 6 seconds of video before you actually hit the record button.
And I do a lot of audio recordings, so that's one of the things I'm kind of known for, is I, I spend a lot of time doing nature sounds and animal sounds, birds and things like that. And we've had the pre recording in audio for quite a long time, but it's taken a long time to finally hit video, and now it's hitting still images. And so the advancement in these cameras is absolutely amazing. So really, that. The essential thing that, to have in your kit, to answer your question, is whatever it is you can afford. That's the bottom line there. Because it doesn't seem like there's any limit anymore. There's nothing. The camera equipment and all that is not holding you back at all. What's holding you back is your finances.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, I see what you're saying, because I think my first camera I bought was like, it's one. It was one of these Nikon 3, 3 cities or whatever. You know, I basically found it online. So, like, that seems like, you know, a beginner camera, went straight to ebay, found a used one, bought that, and then, then from my, my perspective, it was a bit like it's more about the lens than the actual body.
Again, I found a couple of good lenses and, you know, I'm no, I'm no professional or anything, but I think I take a good photo here and there.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: And that's what it is too. These days, there's no barriers to, to taking great images. It used to be there was a handful of people who really had that ability. Great images. Because the equipment was very limiting and, you know, it was just a difficult process. I half jokingly, but kind of seriously say, you know, in the film days, you actually had to know what you were doing in order for it to actually work for you to get a good image. You actually had to know what you were doing. You had to know. You had to understand all the principles of photography. Now with the digital and especially with the mirrorless and things like that, you get that instant feedback back. And what. When you look through a mirrorless lens or look through a mirrorless, excuse me, viewfinder, you see what you're going to get. So if your settings are off, you'll see that your settings are off. And so there's almost no excuse for having a bad image these days because of. Of that advancement. Whereas, you know, when I first started out doing this in film days, you know, you didn't know what you got until you shot it. You paid for the film and then you shot it and then you had to bring the film in, or in my case, I always had to mail it. Then they would mail it back to you and a week later you'd open it up and you'd see what you did or didn't do. Right. You know, there wasn't any of that instant feedback. You had no idea what, what, you know, what was happening with it. You couldn't see what you were doing. You had to know it. You had to know what you were doing. And that was, that was the big difference there.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: That's really interesting, hearing your thoughts on that. I suppose, actually moving. Moving onto the sanctuary. I feel like I should probably ask about that. No, no, it's. It's really interesting just hearing you talk away. So obviously you've been coming to the Venturi Wildlife Sanctuary, running photography tours for quite some time now. I just wanted to sort of know how and when you actually first came across the sanctuary and what keeps bringing you back.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it was the summer of 1999, still shooting film at that time, and was working on some books on bears and discovered the place and went.
A good friend of mine, Dudley Edmondson, and I went together and we went there to. Specifically to photograph bears. I was working on a field guide on the. On the mammals and I needed some very specific types of images. And so the access to the bears was what I was really looking for. And so that was kind of the first time there. And I think I've been there almost every single year since then.
And some years I'm there two and three and four times a year. So. So, yeah, it's got. I have a long history with the place.
I remember when the. It was just a single little deck that everybody would gather on. There was the steps that went up the center of it. And so then we would park kind of like where the staff parks now. The public would park there and you'd walk across the field and climb up these stairs and then get up on the. Onto the deck. And that's how you did your bare observations. So. So yeah, I've seen a lot of changes. And then they, you know, they added on, they added the gift shop and so on and so forth and saw all that, all these changes. And over the years it's been fun to see. Really has been. The growth has been amazing.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. I was going to ask about the changes. Like, what have, what have you liked about the changes you've seen? Indeed. What. What haven't you liked?
[00:29:03] Speaker B: I like the. I like what is going on now with the current kind of emphasis in education and research.
That to me is key to. You've got this resource and to be able to utilize that resource to. To everybody in. See, I. Look, I've spent a whole career in environmental education and it's really something. I think it's a keystone to a lot of different things. And, and I think that that is a good.
That's really the key to what the sanctuary does. And I really, I really appreciate that.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: No, I'm glad to hear it.
I also wanted to sort of hear your thoughts on obviously photographing bears at the sanctuary versus, like, bears in other situations or like. I didn't know if you had any particular thoughts on that. The sanctuary is a very unique place.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Oh, there's no other place like it.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: I'm just imagining some people might feel like, oh, you. Are you invading the bear space?
[00:30:03] Speaker B: Like, oh, I. Sheesh. I don't. I wouldn't think so at all. I mean, with my experience there, I don't think you're invading any bare space. They don't. You know, I think what the. I think what a lot of people do is they mistakenly project their human kind of emotions, their sensibilities, their sense of right and wrong, or, you know, all those things. And they project it on to the natural world. And I think every time that we as people do that, we're almost always wrong. Wrong. We just don't get it right. We're. We look at it from a human centric point of view. And I, I believe as A biologist, I believe that's incorrect. I think you need to look at it from a biological point of view and a kind of a natural history point of view. And that's a different way of doing things. A way in which I think would be if everybody kind of looked at a little bit differently, you'd probably be better off.
But it's hard if you don't have the training. What do you, what do you rely on? You rely on your own experiences? Well, you, your experiences are human experiences. So what else are you going to rely on? And that's where education would come in. Education of like being a wildlife biologist. Understanding these things would be a better way of looking at these things. And that's where somebody like myself with my books or at the nature center or whatever, you know, the way I do it, or the radio show or anything like that, I would, you know, refer to that.
And I do this a lot though. I really speak to how people try to humanize nature and, and try to remove themselves from nature. And I think that is some fundamental mistakes that, that, that we oftentimes make.
Did I confuse you there or.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: No, no, I, I think I, I think I understand what you're saying. Like, yeah, like nature, like it has its own set of rules, doesn't it? And we, we are just, we kind of have to observe and understand that and take it on its own terms. I guess, in a way.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And as we talk, I'll, I'll probably come up with a few more examples of these types of things. But oftentimes what we'll end up doing is we'll take like what the, how we see or how we hear or you know, what we smell or what we taste and worst off, what we feel emotionally and we project it on to say, birds.
And when you, I, I always laugh because when you try to project it on birds, I mean you are, you're jumping across species. I mean you jump from a mammal, you know, to a bird, whereas I think you'd be a little bit closer projecting those things onto, let's just say your family dog and, or a bear.
And you, at least you're going mammal to mammal at that point. And so a lot of those things can equate, but we all know that. Let's just say, for example, you know, your family dog, its ability to smell is a hundred times greater than what you and I can smell. I mean, take, you know, any, you know, drug sniffing dog and their ability, I mean, they have dogs now that can smell cancer within the human body and identify it. I mean, come on. You know, our, our ability to smell is pretty bad. So whenever we try to project our experiences onto them again, we're. We're almost, you know, wrong when it comes to those things. And now compare that to a bear who has.
I mean, they estimate that the bears, olfactories, even, you know, however, many more times greater than the canids, than the dogs.
Now you're talking about a totally different world. They can hear things we can't hear. They can see things we can't see. They can smell things we can't smell. So on and so forth. It goes on and on and on. And that's why whenever we try to project our human things onto them, we tend to be incorrect when we do those things.
Does that make sense? So when you ask about the sanctuary, I have no opinion of, you know, what is being done and how it's being done, because who am I to, you know, judge or say anything about that? I don't. I, I have none because I think it's so far beyond our comprehension. Our comprehension that it is.
To be able to judge, you should be able to see both sides. Okay? That's the only way you'd be able to correctly a judge. But there's no possible way we can see the other side. So how do you judge? You can't.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: Well, I guess it's just through our own experiences and obviously what we see at the sanctuary, you respond to that.
Obviously, we always say the bears are. They're the ones who sort of set the tone when we're around. So.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: And that's a great way of doing it. That really is a truly a great way to approach the situation. Approach it more, try to approach it more from a biological standpoint than from any other standpoint. Because then people start, you know, throwing out things like, you know, what's right and what's wrong or ethics and things. And then it's like, well, now. Now we've lost control because it's, you know, whose sense of right and wrong, whose sense of ethics and all that stuff. You'd have to really define that. So it's a. It's a weird, terrible rabbit hole to go down.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: No. Yeah, definitely.
Well, draining tracks slightly.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Kind of threw you. Kind of threw you off the tracks.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: Got me thinking. Yeah. I was just gonna ask about again, thinking about the sanctuary, Are there any particular bears or specific bears or moments that you photograph there that you particularly like?
[00:36:27] Speaker B: I, you know what? I find it absolutely wonderful how some of the bears are Are known and are kind of tracked over the years. And I love that information. I personally don't internalize that information and.
And, you know, and follow those individuals and things like that. That's just not. I'm too. I guess I'm too much of a biologist to do that, But I appreciate the efforts that's being done to do that. And. And I think that's great. And that type of knowledge of, like, lifespan reproduction and all that stuff is very valuable information. And these types of things are not known unless you have that personal experiences with it. There was a time, Philip, that people believed when bears hibernated, they were unconscious. So during hibernation, they're unconscious. They're. I mean, they're oblivious to anything going on around them. They're, you know, they're laying there with their mouth open, tongue hanging out, snoring away. And. And, you know, and this was, up until fairly recent, you know, a common myth that this is how bears hibernate. But it wasn't until we had these close encounters and, you know, cameras were put into dens over the winter time and things like that that we actually saw that, that all those thoughts about bears hibernating were actually incorrect. Because that's what we do as people when we don't know something, we make it up based on our human. What we think. Right.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: He's all, fill in the blanks.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: Yeah, there it is. Filling in the blanks. And we filled in a break, and we almost always fill in the blanks incorrectly. And so then it wasn't until just recently, the last, you know, 30 years or something like that, that we were able to see that when bears are hibernating, they're actually. Eyes are open, sure, they're sleeping some of the times, but they're awake. Mothers are giving birth, they're taking care of their young. You know, they're nursing. There's just all these different things going on in there, and it's not at all like what we used to think it was, you know, and so that type of close relationships and experiences we have are what teach us the best. And we actually get to know these things in a sound and correct manner and not fill in the blanks with our imagination.
[00:39:00] Speaker A: No, I agree. There's no greater teacher than experience.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: Exactly. There it is. Yeah. Travel and experience. Those. Those things are the things that are really kind of the great educators. And this is. And the sanctuary allows these typ of interactions and understandings, and it allows actual people. I mean, because a lot of people would probably Tell you, oh, you know, if you see a bear, it's going to kill you. And, you know, you come to the sanctuary and you'll learn very quickly that this is not how it is, you know, and. And so it's a. Those types of things are, I think, extremely valuable. And we, as people, we have this desire to get close to nature. We want to see it and we want to experience it. And that is what the sanctuary, I think, does best, is it allows these people to be able to come in and see these bears and under, you know, and understand that they're not vicious killers trying to, you know, rumble across the countryside, you know, taking small children away from their families, you know, that type of thing.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: I was gonna say, once you've seen certain bears will walk along, they don't want to step in another bear's poop. And you see them, if. If they accidentally do and they start, like, doing this little dance and trying to clean it off, you can't really.
They sort of lose their mystique a bit.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: No, but it, but it. It kind of makes them alive. Yeah, definitely. Because. Because that's another, I think, mistake a lot of people do. They think that these animals are automatons where they. You wind them up and they do the same exact behavior over and over again, you know, and it's just very predictable and things like that. And nothing can be further from the truth because they all have unique personalities. They all have different set of experiences that they come with, you know, and their experiences of different things that. That influences the way they do things and how they do it. And they're all unique individuals. And that myself, that, I think is very fascinating. The fact that they're very. In that each bear has its own history, its own set of experiences that it draws upon to be able to navigate the world. And some are more successful than others. And I think that once we get past that and understand these are unique individual animals, then I think you're. The way you see things changes.
Well, I mean, think about it there. I mean, because a lot of times it's hard to kind of give a good examples of it. I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to offend anybody is what I'm trying to say here. And I don't want to really dive into the deep on any of this stuff, but.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, don't worry. I can. We can always edit.
[00:41:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I just. I just don't. People need to understand these. These bears are.
They have two goals. Okay? Find Enough food to survive. Right. And reproduce.
That's it. You know, they have a simple life, a very difficult life, a very challenging life, and a life that requires skill and to navigate through all the dangers of the world. When you're a small bear, you know, relying on your mom to, you know, get you up a tree to be safe and whatever it may be these things are.
Every day for these animals is a challenge, and every day is a success when they're at the end of the day that they've made it, they found food or they've been able to reproduce or whatever it may be. But that's what it boils down to. And once we start looking at it that way, these are individuals, individual bears. We're trying to survive each day, trying to get food, trying to be safe and try to reproduce, then. Then we can start looking at these things a little differently.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think they're pretty much living moment to moment. That's. That's what it is. Yeah.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, they're living for the day. They're living food. Yeah, they're living. Find enough food to get them through. And so. And what the sanctuary does is it provides an opportunity for that, you know, to happen, for them to find that food, to be able to get them through another day and get them through to another point. And. And that's what it kind of boils down to, unfortunately. I think what a lot of people do is they think. They equate it in human terms, and they think, oh, well, once they're fed, they become dependent.
You know, they're like absolutely 100 depended upon. And I always find that funny because that would be people who would do that. Not, you know, not the bears. They would.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: Well, yeah, as we've. We've found with some of the studies we've done, the food is supplemental.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Supplemental.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: And when there's like a berry season, there's a, you know, a really good year. We see less bears. That's because there's natural food for them. And that's ultimately what we like to see. They come and go as they please. That's kind of the point.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: That is the point. And that is another fundamental misunderstanding I think a lot of people have, is that these bears come and go and they use it as a supplemental food source to be able to help them through when they're in that area.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: Yeah, because I know, like, especially nowadays, like, there's a lot more research and new thinking about how male bears especially are migratory and they do travel over far distances. And that's why we, we see certain bears at certain times a year, and we don't see them at any other time.
[00:44:33] Speaker B: And what, what amazes me is that those bears have travel hundreds of miles and successfully navigate that all those pitfalls and all those dangers that are there, every highway, every backya hard, every, you know, every, every situation is a little bit different. And they are successfully navigating that all those obstacles as it moves along through its environment. And that is something to be admired for sure.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: Oh, definitely.
Getting back to sort of photography, I, I wanted to know so like, what some of, like the other sort of animals you've got had to photograph. And like, if there was like, what's the weirdest thing or like the hardest thing you've had to photograph?
I mean, you were saying now with technology, it's made it much. It's much easier to photograph.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: I've had. I've spent a career photographing all sorts of animals. So I do mammal field guides for individual states.
So depending on which. Which state it is, like just. Let's just say Texas, for example. When I was doing the mammal mammal field guide for Texas, that meant I had to go to Texas and find every mouse, every shrewd, every vole, every rat, and find it, capture it, photograph it, not hurt it, and put it back, you know, and, and, and, and depict it in a setting that reflects its habitat. And so it was quite a challenge to do that. And yeah, and so every. And those are very difficult. I mean, these are small little animals who, you know, you're trying to. You're just trying to capture a picture of them, but they don't know that, you know, they, you know, they're thinking, what the heck's going on here? And so being able to capture a picture of them and then to be able to safely return them to right where they were, you know, trapped from and put them back, every mouse of it was just difficult to say say the least. But I would spend weeks and weeks and weeks on end going out and, and trapping in different habitats to find these animals to ensure that they're, you know, in good health and be able to. Well, first of all, you have to identify them. Holy mackerel.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: I was gonna say when you might say the case of you. You capture it and you're just like, oh, no, I've already done you.
[00:46:51] Speaker B: Oh, yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, like deer mice. Oh, my gosh. I mean, there's deer mice everywhere. And it's like, oh, another deer mouse. Back you go, you know, and because you're looking for Very specific types of things. And I relied on a number of friends who are also biologists who had, you know, intimate knowledge of these things and did research on these things. And so I'd go out with them and it's just. So there's so many things that I've done to, you know, endangered animals like black footed ferrets.
I remember back in the late 70s when they were declared extinct, you know, it was like they, they literally said, we've not seen one of these in the last five years. So the, the federal government declared the black footed ferret extinct. And then five years later they found one and turns out there was a small colony there and they weren't extinct. So it's like. So I had an opportunity to go out and photograph Blackford ferrets.
Very difficult situations to do, you know, photograph in the middle of the night because these are nocturnal animals and they're usually down inside underground burrows and things like that. So there's so many different things that I've had to photograph. All the birds, wildflowers, trees, all these types of things that I've.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: The wildflower is very evasive, I'm sure.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
Finding them. Well, you got to find them during that one short window of time in which they're blooming, you know, and if you guess what, if you miss it next year, gotta wait another year, you.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Know, sorry, that deadline's gonna be missed.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So. Yeah.
[00:48:33] Speaker A: Have you actually managed, have you done every single state in the US for birds?
[00:48:37] Speaker B: I have. You know, all except for Hawaii. I've not done Hawaii mainly because the publisher doesn't really have much of a distribution system in, in Hawaii. So I've done all the birds for all the states. I've done mammals for about half the states.
Same thing with, for the wildflowers and the trees.
People really like their trees. And so the native trees, not the cultivars, not the things that are man made, you know, bred.
So I've done all those also. And these are the things that people like. They like to understand what's around them.
That's how I was when I was a kid. For some reason I had this, I had this desire to know what every single plant was that was around me as I was walking down a trail. I had to know what it was.
I don't know why, it's just the way I'm wired, you know, and, and that's what kind of got me going in all this stuff too, is understanding that the mushrooms is another one too.
All these types of things I've, I was, you know, still am.
I was asked one time about that and, and I, I came up this theory. You know, I was a. So I was a director of a nature center for a long, long time and, and I saw it all the time. Children, young children would come in with absolute, utter fascination for, for nature. They had this curiosity, natural curiosity for what was, was what everything was. And they found it all very interesting and very fulfilling. And then around, I don't know, age 10, 12 or 14, people seem to lose it. It seems to go away and they don't. They turn their back on nature and they turn towards the human centric types of things. I never lost it. I held it my whole life. I've had this fascination and appreciation and admiration for, for, for nature and wildlife my whole life like that. And then it's funny because around, I don't know, when you're in your 50s and in your 60s, all of a sudden it starts coming back.
You start going, oh, this nature stuff is interesting. And I've seen it time and time again. The older you are, the, the more interested you are in these finer points of nature and all that. And so it's kind of a. I've had a pretty steady, smooth ride. But a lot of people have this kind of. They start out strong, it drops off, then it comes back again. And so I see that time and time again people kind of re approaching later on in life to the natural world and what's in it. You know, whether it be bears or wolves or, or birds or whatever it may be.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: No, that's great. I mean, for myself, I must have been a bit of a late bloomer because it wasn't really until my mid-20s that I started really getting into nature and wildlife. I, like, I basically went and did some volunteer work in Ecuador at a wildlife sanctuary because I kind of thought, oh, this would be fun to do. Thought that'll be it, I'll be kind of done. But of course, I guess the genie was out the bottle at that point. I just found, I was like, oh, I want to go do some more. I want to do that. I want to do this.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: We're all on our own time schedule then, aren't we? You know, yeah, we're all doing different things at different times that, you know, kind of lead us to the, to where we are in our lives and we all have to find those, those types of things. I've been, been very fortunate to be able to pursue what my interests have always been for, for a whole career and it's been, it's been wonderful. Really has.
[00:52:03] Speaker A: No, fantastic. So what, what have you actually got coming up this year? Like, you've got several. I know you come to the sanctuary.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: Well, I've got quite a few photo tours coming up here. I got one for Florida where that's all birds, a little bit of reptiles in there, there. And then, let's see, I got a trip to Alaska for bald eagles and sea otters. So we'll go out on, on a boat and photograph these bald eagles and sea otters. The sea otters are wonderful because they're, they'll. The females give birth at just about any time of year. So we can always find some that are, have young babies that they're carrying around in their bellies, you know, and, uh, it's just such a, a make such a cute little picture with them. And then I'll be doing all my normal things throughout the summer. I'll be up the sanctuary in spring. I got a, A, A photo workshop twice a year, once in the spring, once in the fall. So people are interested. They could go to naturesmart.com and see the listing there under the photo tours. And so that, and that's always a great way to learn, you know, your camera and learn what to do and how to do it. You, you might think, by the way, that just photographing a bear is. Oh, it's just there. It's so easy. It's not. It's very difficult. They are. They're so dark and they like, absorb so much light that your camera struggles with that. And having the right settings and being able to photograph them in a way in which it kind of really shows them them is, is not easy. It seems a lot easier than it is, but it's not. I've had, I've known people who have tried to photograph at the sanctuary and just didn't have the right settings and ended up with, you know, no sharp images after a full day of photographing too. So that's what, you know, the photo workshops do is they help you learn more and be more, are proficient at, you know, capturing these types of unique situations of, you know, these really remarkable animals in natural habitats.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: It's a great mix as well because you obviously get to see all the spring cubs come in and then later on you get to see, see them all. Right, right. During hyperphasia and at the end of that.
[00:54:28] Speaker B: Right, yeah. I'll be there also in August for one of the birds and breakfast. So I, that's something I do is I Volunteer my time to come and autograph books. So I just hang out on the deck and people who come for the birds and breakfast in the morning, you.
[00:54:46] Speaker A: Know, breakfast for the bears as well.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: Oh, is that what it's called?
[00:54:50] Speaker A: I know, don't worry. I was gonna, I was gonna plug that. So you've already done it for me.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: It's Breakfast with the bears. Is that it? That's the one. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So then, oh yeah, I'll be there for that. And like I said, I just volunteer my time. I sign books for people. All the sales of the proceed back to the center, which is, you know, which is great. I love to help out in any possible way that I can. So that's, I'll do that in August and then I'll be back there in September for the fall workshop too. So again, if people are interested in kind of, you know, black bear photography workshop, go to nature smart.com and I'll have, uh, my dates there.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. And uh, I'm, I'm intrigued now. Are you working on any other books at the minute?
[00:55:33] Speaker B: It, yeah, actually I've got 10 books coming out in spring of 2025.
Well, let's see. It's eight books and I wish I, I don't have it here. Darn it all.
One of them is a game. It's a card game. It's, I have a very popular children's book that's called whose Butt? And it's all about animal butts. And this is a card game that goes along with the who's Butt. So it's like nine books and one card game or eight books and two card games. I, I can't recall right now. That's the problem with working on so much at one time. I, I, I start getting it confused. You know, I can't figure it out.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: So say as long as they're typo free. That's what these ones.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Thank goodness for all the technology these days.
But yeah, it, it's a, I'm doing a field guide for the mammals of the Midwest. So this will cover all the mammals in about a, I'm doing a mammals for the Northwest, which is like Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and Alaska.
So doing some field guides for them.
And I started preliminarily working on some, a reptile amphibian guide for the Midwest and one for the Southwest. So like Arizona, California, New Mexico, that type of thing. So I got those in the works. So yeah, I'm usually working on four or five or six books at the Same time.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: And yeah, I was just gonna say like, I suppose because if you're gonna go to an area, you're gonna try and capture as many of the animals a species that you can and that might cover several books, I'm guessing.
[00:57:23] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So when I go out, I'm photographing everything. Not just, you know, birds or not just in mammals or just reptiles that try to, you know, spread it across because you never know and you never know what's going to happen in the future too. Think that's one thing I've, I used to be able to think I could predict like what we would need next.
The people, the, the public wants different things and, and the publisher switches things around all the time on me and I end up having to regroup and start all over and start new, new projects. So I've started so many books. I've, I've actually completed a number of books that never got published also because it just didn't work out for marketing and worked out for distribution and things like that, so.
[00:58:08] Speaker A: Oh, well, you never know. It might come back around that time might come.
[00:58:10] Speaker B: You never know. Yeah, you never know. Yeah.
[00:58:14] Speaker A: Oh, fabulous. I mean, was there anything else you kind of wanted to talk about?
[00:58:19] Speaker B: No, I think the, I think the bear sanctuary is just to kind of finish up on that. What a.
I think people need to understand how unique, how it is such a, a gem that a lot of people don't know about and they should know about it. It's a unique opportunity that you'll find nowhere else in the world. And it's, you know, right here in the United States and not only that's in Minnesota, it's such a, such a great location for that and it's, it's something that I think we oftentimes don't.
I don't want to talk it in the, I don't want to talk about it in the past tense at all. But if it were to go away, people would, it would be a, it would be really a shame. It would be really a disaster because of the ability to get these close up interactions with the American black bear, which is a, you know, unique species just to the Americas and it's, it, you're not going to find these types of opportunities just any old place. And it's for that it's, it's worth its weight in gold right there.
[00:59:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you. That's, that's great. I mean, like you say, that's the reason I came. I, I found out about it and went this sound Sounds pretty. What is this place? I need to see it.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Yeah. What is this?
[00:59:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:48] Speaker B: Isn't that funny how that is? Yeah, you go like, what is this? This is like, what the heck?
[00:59:53] Speaker A: And you're just sort of like, you're always oscillating between. Yeah, this place shouldn't really be here, but isn't it great that it is?
[00:59:59] Speaker B: It's like there it is. Yeah, well, I think it, I think it does, it, it does some very, very important work and it allows some access and allows some education to the general public that is not by any other method. And right there. It's worth it. Right there. Unfortunately, especially in this country, we don't, we don't value our educators and like we should. And this is an educational facility that should be revered and understood by, you know, a lot of people to that this is a opportunity to be able to get this up close and personal study and observation of, of bears that you just can't get anywhere else. And so for that alone, it's, it's really a unique and worthy cause. For sure.
I've been very fortunate to be able to do what I've really wanted to do as far as studying wildlife and pass that information on to other people. Because that's what it boils down to right there is educating other people. And to me it seems like you have to do this in a bunch of different ways. People don't learn just way, they have to see things. I often times say people need to see things two or three different ways in order to understand that one thing. And so whether it be radio, a podcast or newspaper column, or in person or book or whatever it may be, all of those things need to be covered well in order to be able to get that one message across to the average people who, who are busy, busy, you know, busy lives doing different things. And you need to be able to present it in different manners in which those different manners total up, add up to a complete understanding. And, and we have a long way to go, of course, because there's an awful lot of people out there and learning about animals and learning about black bears in general is, you know, it's a lifelong pursuit and something that could be, you know, we could use more of it.
[01:02:11] Speaker A: Thank you very much. I mean, we really appreciate you coming on and talking to us and it's great to hear your passion for nature and, you know, and it doesn't look like it's slowing down anytime soon, so. No, it's great.
[01:02:22] Speaker B: No, it isn't. In fact, it's maybe burning brighter than ever.
And I understand that that's not something that's in. Found in everybody. Everybody doesn't have a passion burning inside of them. I mean, they do. It's different things. It may be whatever, you know, bowling or whatever it may be, but I, I enjoy what I. What I do. And trying to educate people about the natural world and about the different things that are within it is. Is, you know, it's a noble cause and try to do the best I can. I'll tell you honestly, some days I feel like a complete failure because we still, as people, do some ridiculous things, you know, when it comes to the environment and choices that we make and things like that. But overall, I hope that I've done. Done in my career, done enough to educate people about a lot of different things. And I know a lot of people certainly appreciate the birds more now than they used to or, you know, reptiles or amphibians or whatever it may be. So.
[01:03:23] Speaker A: No, I'm. I'm very sure, like, it's. It's probably not always obvious, but I'm sure you've made a difference a lot of people's lives. And when things don't look like they're doing very well, that's sort of the time where we need to push even more interesting.
[01:03:37] Speaker B: Philip When I first started doing books, I always knew I wanted to write books. Okay, it was just something I always wanted to do.
But I never realized the depth, the reach that these books would have. Never dawned on me, not at all. And it was decades and decades later when people would come to me and say, tell me their story of their experience with one of my books or something like that. That, that. And a lot of them are so emotional stories too, that I, I went, holy mackerel. I just didn't realize how much I could. How much something I just thought was, whatever, it's just a book, you know, type of thing would actually impact people's lives and never, never dawned on me at all. And I do understand it now, now. And I often joking, jokingly say, boy, if I'd known back then, I probably would have worked harder on the books or something, you know, simply a joke. But it's like, wow. Yeah, it's.
I. Well, I. I know there's certain books that really made a difference in my life and things like that, so. Well, sure makes sense, I guess. But I never thought anything that I would do would make any kind of difference like that.
[01:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I suppose it's. It's always something you. You'll never know until you sort of once you've done it and look back on it, that's when you yeah.
Thank you once again to Stan de Keela for that fascinating interview. When I look at one of Stan's field guides in the future, I think I'll appreciate just how much work goes into it. And moving forward into the next episode, we'll be returning to the Founder Tales with co founder Clarie Lee joining me in the Bed Den. See you then.
The Bear Den the American Bear association podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubley. The music was composed by React Music. Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Housman, Bill Lee, Clary Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka, Ross Coyer and Angie Page. You can find out more about the American Bear association at www.americanbear.org. you can find Vince Shooty Wildlife Sanctuary on Facebook and Instagram. You can ask questions and submit comments about the podcast to pswericanbear.org the ABA is a special circumstance. We do not condone feeding wild animals. If you enjoy this podcast, help support the ABA either by donating, becoming an ABA member, symbolically adopting a bear, or come visit the sanctuary during the season and say hello. And if you do enjoy this, please do us a favour. We'll barely take any of your time, I promise. On whatever platform you're listening to this on, please I To follow us Click the bell for updates Notifications Please share with family and friends and rate the podcast as it all helps us grow and is greatly appreciated.
