[00:00:00] Speaker A: Surprise.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: It's me, Philip, and this is the
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Bear Den where we talk about bears,
[00:00:04] Speaker B: wildlife and people making a difference for them.
Depending on when you're listening to this,
[00:00:09] Speaker A: we wrapped up our season a few weeks ago, but we have a special bonus episode as this only came together really also a few weeks ago and I didn't really want to sit on it. I did want to get it out there.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: We're welcoming Gloria Dicke, freelance journalist and
[00:00:24] Speaker A: author of the book 8 Into the Bear Den. And we discuss conservation and her global
[00:00:30] Speaker B: journey researching the world's eight remaining bear species.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: So what have we got?
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Coming up, Gloria talks about her background,
[00:00:39] Speaker A: a bit about her writing process and, you know, some of the challenges, like witnessing Asiatic black bears on bio farms, as well as positive experiences visiting China to learn about panda conservation and panda diplomacy. We also talk about the future of threatened bear species, particularly those impacted by climate change. And some current bear related news, Japan and conservation challenges in Alaska. So we cover a lot and I hope you enjoy the chat as much
[00:01:06] Speaker B: as I did and are inspired to check out the book and her other work.
So, without further ado, there is a place in the remote Northwoods of Minnesota, North America. It's located near the town of ore, population approximately 300.
Outside of this town is an area where normal rules are put to one side. It's a place where humans and wildlife meet. It's a special place, wholly unique and not without its controversies. This is the Vince Schutte Wildlife Sanctuary, run by the American Bear Association, ABA for short.
The ABA is dedicated to promoting a better understanding of black bears and all wildlife through education, observation and experience.
I'm your host, Philip Stubley, and welcome to the Bear Den.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Well, I mean, obviously we've been talking. I've been talking to people about bears across the podcast and hearing from people all over the world. And now we've got your lovely self on and you've kind of gone further than that. You've actually been to all these places and met the people in person. So, Gloria, it's really great to have you here today. So could you introduce yourself and just tell us where you're speaking to us from?
[00:02:14] Speaker C: Sure. I'm Gloria Dickey. I'm a freelance journalist and author of the book eight Bears and I'm currently based in Bangkok, which is a bit of a departure from my usual terrain, but I've been here for the past, the past year kind of reporting on conservation issues in Southeast Asia.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Amazing. I mean, yeah, well, there's plenty of material, I suppose, to write about there.
But yeah, you're a bit of a jet setter, really. So you're based in Bangkok for the foreseeable?
[00:02:40] Speaker C: Basically, yeah. Probably for at least another year. I mean, there are bears here, which is good. We've got sun bears and Asiatic black bears. So I think not completely a departure from my usual reporting beats, but we were just talking about the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes can be a bit.
Bit of a cross to bear, pun intended.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: I know. Yeah, I know. I mean, I was quite lucky, I think, when. Whenever I've been in Asia, they don't seem to like me that much. It's one of those where I'll be sitting there and I'll be sitting next to someone and they're getting kind of just eaten alive.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm the target. I'm the. I'm the target.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: All right, so. Okay, I know who to sit next to then.
So have you always wanted to be a writer? Like a journalist? Like, I've. I've always found writing is a bit of a compulsion, so it's something you can't help. It's kind of a bit of a need there. So I just wondered, like, where. Where it's coming from for you.
[00:03:27] Speaker C: As a kid, I wanted to be a veterinarian. And then I think when I was a bit older, I kind of realized that I like wildlife or wild animals more than just domestic animals. And I remember looking into, like, what it would take to be a wildlife biologist.
And my forte was not math or like physics or chemistry. Like I was. That was kind of at school. I despised those classes. I really enjoyed writing English, languages, geography too.
So I was a little bit dismayed, I think, at that time of like, oh, like I'm not really good at what it would take to be perhaps a wildlife biologist, at least to get through school for it. And you have chemistry and physics and all of that.
But at the time I was reading a lot of National Geographic articles about wildlife biologists. And I remember having this moment where I was like, oh, like someone has to write these articles.
And I was kind of thinking like, okay, like maybe some sort of, like, I mean, like a lot of kids, I was like, okay, I could work for National Geographic was kind of the initial fever dream.
But, yeah, I think from that moment onwards I kind of wanted to be an environmental journalist in whatever form that would go on to take.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: That's right. And I mean, I think, well, you've lived that dream out, right? You've written for National Geographic, haven't you?
[00:04:43] Speaker C: I have And I'm a National Geographic explorer as well for soft bears in India.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Oh, amazing. And so, like, do you have a writing routine particularly? Is there sort of, like, you know, you've got a set sort of thing you have to do or a kind of process?
[00:04:58] Speaker C: It varies. I'd say to, like, my career has been fairly dynamic in the sense of, like, I write in a lot of different formats. So I've written a book, which is obviously quite long. I've written magazine features, I've written newspaper stories. I've written for wire services, which is like, you know, 300 words or less.
So I think throughout, like, I've been a journalist now for about 12 years, and, like, all of my works kind of come in different iterations, which makes it a little bit hard, I think, to like, establish a.
A pattern. I think fiction writers can have their kind of set writing routines. I think for me, my only principles are normally that I write early in the morning if I can. My brain is so much better at 6am than it is at 2pm and ideally, I also have coffee. So those are kind of my two things in terms of where I write.
I typically would always like to work from cafes to get write most things. I like to be around people when I'm working. Not library, quiet, solitude, but in Bangkok, I actually write from home a lot more. I've kind of gotten into, like, the double. Double screens, double laptop things. It's so much easier when I'm looking at, like, a lot of notes and scientific studies and interviews. Like, it makes me a little bit more predisposed to staying at home.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe it's a bad thing. No, no, I. I'm a victim of the double screen boom as well. I'm just like, if I struggle if I've got one nowadays.
[00:06:20] Speaker C: But yeah, when I wrote Eight Bears, I did it all on my laptop. And now I look back and I'm like, I don't know how I wrote a book on my laptop, but there we go.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: I mean, people did it on typewriters and things before, you know. That's true.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: They wrote pen and paper. Pen and paper too.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but. All right, okay. So I don't know why you just made me think of Ernest Hemingway when you were talking about writing in the morning. Because that was kind of his thing, wasn't it? Like, write till midday, then hit up the bar.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: Yeah, that sounds like the journalist lifestyle. But yeah, I mean, I love working to myself in part, just because you can kind of work in the rhythms of when your brain Works the most versus, like, having to subscribe to nine to five or, you know, nine to six. It's like, okay, if I know that I work best starting my day at 6 or 7am I can kind of do more of that.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess sometimes I suppose inspiration can hit at any time, so you might just kind of end up scribbling away on whatever's nearest notepad or whatever.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I find too, like, if I'm going, I still always go for walks, like, whenever I have a big story to think about. A process going for like a long walk will really kind of like start to shape how I want to frame it and structure it in my head. So that was always, like a writing advice that I would often give to people too, is like, if you're struggling with something, like, go for a walk to work through it.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: I think. Yeah, it's like the sort of. I would always do the thing where if you're struggling with something, put it. Put it in a drawer, throw it to one side for a while, walk away. Yeah. And then come back to it. I think that's always helpful.
[00:07:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: So, yeah. What about bears? So how did the sort of association with bears come from? Have you always been interested in bears? I know you said you want to be like, wildlife biologists, so I'm guessing it's all stemmed. It stemmed from childhood.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I always liked wildlife. I don't remember the particular moment where I kind of was like, bears are it. Bears are my thing.
I have some kind of nascent early childhood experiences.
I did not grow up with, like, a favorite teddy bear. My brother did. I had cats and a bunny. So I did not have, like, a teddy bear association that I read about in my book.
I think one of my earliest memories, though, was that, and I wrote about this briefly in my book too, was that we used to go to the Canadian Rockies when I was a kid because my grandparents lived near there.
And my mom was extremely afraid, afraid of grizzly bears. And so she would put me on this, like, little, like, leash whenever we were going on, like, the trails or anything around, you know, the camp, because she was so afraid that a bear would come and grab me.
And my brother was allowed to kind of go ahead and, you know, do what he wanted. And I remember being very frustrated that I was kind of tethered, you know, and I couldn't run off into the woods to look for animals.
So I kind of said, you know, it's kind of parental irony, of course, that you end up with the Kid who's like, well, now that I'm an adult, I'm going to chase the bears around the world.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you're. You're off the leash now.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: I'm off the leash. I'm off the leash is my form of rebellion.
And then, yeah, like, where I grew up in kind of southwestern Ontario of Canada, we didn't have bears there. So I think for me, you know, they used to be there. They're in a lot of the U.S. obviously, they're kind of all around where I grew up, but we were kind of in this, like, bare desert.
And I think that lack of, kind of, you know, apex predator, that lack of, like, big, charismatic megafauna made me all the more captivated by bears. And then when I was 23, I moved to Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, which is in the foothills of the Rockies, and there were lots of bears coming to town.
And so my first kind of encounters was with those bears that would come into the city and that were sleeping in trees and eating apples. And that kind of led into my. That led into my master's project.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel parallels with myself slightly because when you talk about. Because obviously in the UK we don't have bears. So, you know. And then when I went to Canada, I lived in Whistler, Vancouver, and then I also went to the Canadian Rockies. That's kind of where the kind of fascination with bears grew from there for me as well.
But that's so cool.
[00:10:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I think you engage with nature in, like, such a different way when you are in a place where, you know there are bears. Like, your mind just takes on its own wilderness in a way. Like, I feel like you're kind of like, wow, like, I could. I could see a bear here, I think.
Interesting. I just got back from a trip to Alaska, and there were so many parts of it up in the north. I'm like, oh, it reminds me of Iceland. I was like, oh, this looks out on the tundra. You're like, okay, this could be Iceland. I'm like, but there could also be a grizzly bear. So your mind just kind of goes in a different place.
And actually we were down sitting by a stream one day having lunch, doing some field work. And then when we. And I remember thinking briefly like, this seems like good bear habitat along the stream with the willows. And then we were just leaving.
About 20 minutes later, someone saw grizzly bear on the other side of the slope. So it's like you were kind of in bear habitat in bear country right there.
But it feels so calm and normal when you're. It could be any place in the world and there's bears.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: Yeah, Always possibilities.
So, yeah, I thought, let's talk about eight bears then. You've mentioned it. Eight bears. Mythic past, imperil Future. It's the book you wrote. So what's the 25 words or less kind of pitch? What's it about?
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Oh, it is a journey around the world to look at our relationships to and the threats facing the world's eight remaining species of bears. So from polar bears in the Arctic to spectacled bears in the Andes to sun and moon bears in Southeast Asia.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: And so, like, what was. I mean, obviously, yes, we've just talked about how great bears are, but what was kind of the main inspiration for. For writing eight Bears?
What got to a point when you went, I want to write a novel on this? Not a novel, but a book on this?
[00:12:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I was doing a lot of work on American black bears and grizzly bears and Yellowstone. This was kind of the mid 2010s. I was doing a lot of reporting on these topics.
The Yellowstone grizzly bear was up for delisting, which it often, often is.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: It still is, isn't it?
[00:12:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it still is. Again, it's always kind of going, like, back and forth, the political debate. I was doing some writing on polar bears, and I think one day I just. This is like, my recollection, which could be wrong, but I just googled, like, how many bears are there? Because I didn't know how many bears existed. And I think I was just like, how many bears?
And Google K was like, eight bears. And I was like, oh, that's like a pretty good number for a book. Like, that's eight clean chapters. If you had eight bears compared to some other unwieldy species where there's hundreds of something. Right?
And then.
Yeah, so that was kind of like the first moment that I thought about it. At the same time, too, I kind of wanted to do more, particularly in my career. I had an interest in working internationally, wanted to get it in the world more beyond just, you know, Canada and the U.S. where I'd grown up.
And I was like, okay, well, these bears are also, like, located in some pretty interesting places to go to if you were to do a book. Right. You could go to the Andes, you could go to Vietnam, you could go to China, you could go to India. Right. So it was kind of like, appealed to my kind of youthful naivete and, you know, wanting to get more international experience with a very doable number of bears. So it's kind of from like, a practical standpoint in some ways, in addition to, like, my interest in what I knew of the North American species.
And I think to remember thinking, like, there were so many books that had been written about grizzly bears and about polar bears and black bears, and there was almost nothing that had been written about the other bear species in for a North American audience.
So, yeah, I kind of was like, I'd like to introduce people to the spectacled bear, to the sun bear, to the sloth bear. I think people would be interested in hearing more about those animals.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, you're right about stuff like the sloth bear, sun bear. It feels like there's so much that we don't know about them still. It's always fascinating to read about them, I think.
So how long did it take to put the book together, then, once you decided you were going to do it and kind of, I guess, I mean, obviously you've got to travel all these places and organize that. I imagine it didn't just happen overnight.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: Yeah. So essentially, like, the very first kind of like, oh, this could actually happen moment was that I went to a conference for environmental journalists in the US in fall of 2017, and they had, like, a little session where you could.
You had like, two minutes to kind of like, roughly pitch a book idea, and they'd assemble this panel of editors who would come and they would give you, you know, it's kind of just like they would just give you feedback if you were interested maybe in writing a book.
And so I stood up, I gave me a little, like, eight bear pitch.
And one of the editors there, Matt Weiland at W.W. norton, came out to me after. He's like, oh, I actually really like your idea. I'd encourage you to get an agent and put together a full proposal to, like, and then bring it to me.
So that took me about a year to write a proposal, maybe, maybe a bit less than that, six months,
[00:15:02] Speaker A: got
[00:15:02] Speaker C: an agent, which also takes some time, and then the book went to auction. I ended up choosing to go with Matt because I really liked. We had the same vision. He had a very eloquent approach to the book.
I was very happy with that choice in the end.
And then from there, it was, like, about five years total. So it's a very long undertaking. I spent 2018 and 2019 fully reporting the book, Traveling, Living in a Backpack. 2020. Luckily, the pandemic hit, so I could write during that time. Uninterrupted into 2021 and then the final two years before it came out in the summer of 23 were like fact checking, marketing, more research, kind of tying things together for the release. So all. And I would say, like, 2017 to 2023 was kind of the.
Yeah. The saga that the book spanned.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Yeah. No, it's really interesting to hear the process just like what goes into it.
And I mean, well, it's been it. As far as I can tell by reading the COVID It's been very well received. And our best book of the year and the New Yorker Economist, I mean, did. Was the reception a bit of a pleasant surprise?
[00:16:11] Speaker C: It was, yeah. I mean, I think, like, you don't know.
I mean, books are so difficult, right? Like, especially like nonfiction. Especially like environmental nonfiction can be really difficult. It's a very small corner of the market.
I think what I really loved about the publishing process was just like hearing from so many readers.
My dad likes to check my Goodreads reviews every week and tell me what people are saying. And it's actually quite nice to. Some people have left nice comments about how they relate to the book. They've shared their own stories with theirs.
So that's kind of been the gift that keeps on giving is still hearing from people every week about what they enjoy.
And yeah, of course, the kind of other merits of acclaim and, you know, media coverage is nice too, but eventually that kind of peters off after the first few months and then what you continue to have is the readers getting in touch.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it is a. I think it took me a day or two to read it. It's very engrossing. It's very accessible. I think it does transcend, like, kind of like the niche. I think it does reach a nice wider audience. The balance is there nicely. And a few friends of mine who are also bear people have enjoyed it. And I remember I did say that we were chatting until one of my friend, Madison, she's like, I've got a couple of questions, so I might pet with them throughout.
[00:17:29] Speaker C: Great.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: But. Yeah. But. Yeah. So your work kind of focuses on climate change a lot. And so being from Canada and in the book, you sort of said that polar bears are your favorite. And so it was. That was. Was that one of the best experiences whilst researching for it?
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say too, like, I mean, polar bears were, I guess, the bear species that I was able to get the closest to in.
In the wild. I always kind of couch that because I'm like, it was in the wild. I was in one of those, like, tundra buggy research vessels on the tundra. So you're kind of protected, and it's kind of like you're in the cage in a way, I guess, like the bear is free, but you feel like you're behind a wall in some way. I mean, you're not behind a wall, but you're like 10ft off the ground, so you might as well be.
But, yeah, I think, like, that was really memorable. I think seeing these animals that spend so much of their life, you know, out on the sea ice, far apart from the human world, just knowing what it takes to survive in that environment and seeing them kind of grace us with their presence on land for a few months each year was really powerful. And knowing, you know, their trajectory of knowing what's happening to these bears.
That population in western Hudson Bay has fallen by roughly half since the 1980s.
So to see these animals that seem so strong and powerful in front of you and knowing kind of how easily humans have laid waste to them through altering their habitat was quite sad and profound, I imagine.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: So, I mean, building on that, when you say, was it. I mean, I know there were some dicey moments to say, like, South America or. It seemed like in Vietnam as well. There were just some kind of, you know, hot on the collar at times. But, like, were there, like, harder bears to research than that?
[00:19:14] Speaker C: Yes, certainly. I would say the Asiatic black bears that are kept on biofarms in much of Southeast Asia and China.
I didn't report on this in China. It's very difficult to on this topic. I did go to Vietnam, which in many ways is a success story of bare bile farming.
So for those who don't know, many bear species are subject to poaching or farming for the bile that's in their gallbladder used in traditional Asian medicines. And this has been going on for millennia, but it still persists to this day on kind of these commercial farms in China and kind of smaller, like mom and pop farms in places like Vietnam.
Vietnam has actually worked very hard to outlaw their bio farming. And most of those bears have been moved into sanctuaries in recent years. There's still maybe, I guess around 100 at this point. I'd have to check the numbers, but at the time that I went, I think there was a few hundred that were still.
Still on farms.
And it was kind of a surreal experience to be in the middle of, you know, a Vietnamese town, and you're walking down the street and there's just like 30 captive moon bears, you know, to your left. Right. It's a very strange thing to see.
The bears that I saw exhibited a lot of upsetting stress behaviors. You know, they're kind of swaying their heads to and fro. They're pacing. They can barely move in their cages.
They have a lot of wounds.
The farmers knock them out with ketamine to take their bile. So, I mean. Yeah, that was really.
That was a really hard thing to see up front and personal. I would think about those bears quite a bit after I'd witnessed what was happening.
But at the same time, I also was able to go to some sanctuaries where a lot of these bears have been rescued. And Reno's a really beautiful juxtaposition to what I had seen in these villages, which was, you know, hundreds of bears that are happy. They'd be swinging their hammocks, they'd be swimming, they'd have their bear friends. You know, a lot of them were amputees. They'd lost their paws to claw traps when they were poached from the wild.
But a lot of them had a very sweet disposition. And. Yeah, it was a nice way to kind of see what. What was possible for these bears.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, it's always. It's that kind of. Yeah. Whenever you see. It's sort of an animal. It's a wild animal that just doesn't look right. And you see them in. In a situation like that, and it's like the individual is just kind of. It's seen as a commodity. It's just. Yeah, it's. It's always hard, but. But that's kind of. It's the different perceptions, I suppose, of people.
You know, like people there in. In certain countries, like, they don't see it like we do, or, you know, it's.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: It's.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: It's a sort of a hard line to navigate.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: And I remember, like, my mom was really upset when she kind of read about the bio bears. We talked about it, and I was kind of like, well, it was upsetting, obviously, but I'm also like, well, you know, in western cultures, we do keep factory farm animals in very similar conditions. Right. Yeah. I think for me, like, the bear is upsetting because it lives for so long. Some of these bears have been there for 10 or 15 years, you know, compared to pigs or cows. But at the same time, like, the conditions can be very bad for them as well. So. So it's kind of easy to be like, oh, this is such a barbaric thing. To do, but we do subject a lot of animals to this kind of fate.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: Yeah, very true. I mean, I'm not a big fan of factory farming. Yeah, I know what you're saying.
[00:22:37] Speaker C: I think it's strange to see. I mean, it's strange to see such a powerful. Like, it's strange to see bears, it's strange to see tigers, it's strange to see these kind of, like, monarchs of the wilderness in such conditions. Like, that's what I find, like, really confronting often is when you go. I've been to zoos and these sorts of places, too, but to see these very regal animals kind of brought down to, like, this, you know, inhuman existence is quite darkly memorable.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it stays with you.
And I suppose. Well, on a positive. A more positive note, what was, like, the fun side of researching the book there.
[00:23:16] Speaker C: There? Well, researching the book in general. Yes, there was a lot of fun. I mean, I think it was very much the same, this dance between, like, light and dark topics. And I think that's kind of in general, like, the biodiversity beat for a journalist, too, is like, there's a lot of gloom, but also there's a lot of, like, spectacular things in the natural world that hopefully we can kind of still hold on to. Some of that wonder.
For me, like, I love. I loved being in China. I loved seeing the pandas, seeing all of the conservation efforts that China had put into protecting pandas. You know, they're building this, like, giant national park.
I actually just visited Chengdu again recently as a tourist, and, like, it's just so phenomenal to see, like, how much the social cache of pandas. Right. Like, everything is panda. It's very cool to see a bear get that much attention.
And, yeah, I mean, pandas are fun. They're very cute animals.
Can kind of stand and watch them for hours. So, yeah, that was definitely a really joyful part of the book to report that.
I mean, oftentimes, maybe the bear story itself was a bit sad, but at the same time, you were going to, like, really beautiful places. I mean, going to the Andes, going to the cloud forests.
That really stayed with me. The.
Yeah, the sheer beauty of that ecosystem. The hummingbirds, you know, the plants, the bromeliads. Like, it was such a rich place to be.
So, yeah, I had a lot of fun with that. And also, like, the scientists, I mean, the people that I went with were so passionate.
Many of them had dedicated their lives to these animals.
So even, I think when you were confronted with these dark stories and narratives, there was always a person who was spending their life trying to make a difference.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. And that is important. That's why it helps me sleep at night thinking that there's people out there. Everyone's got their sort of interest and passion, and they're all pursuing it. And I like to think that there's someone out there doing that work. But, yeah, speaking of China. So a big theme of the book was, like, the changing relationship between humans and bears. And I was kind of interested to actually ask you a bit more about their experience in China with pandas, because I kind of liked following the changing relationship there. And you really beautifully described the history there, like I was reading. I mean, I actually ended up getting a copy of the lady and the Panda, which is a book you reference in. In there, because. Yes, about Ruth Harkness.
[00:25:38] Speaker C: I love that book.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So just bearing you on this thing, she was the first American explorer to bring back a panda to the US which obviously probably, you know, probably a bit problematic saying it like that these days, but it's a fascinating book. I haven't actually read it yet, but it's sitting on the shelf, ready to go. I'm really looking forward to it.
[00:25:56] Speaker C: There was another book, too, that came out last year that I reviewed for Foreign Policy called the Beast in the Clouds, and I'm not sure if you come across that one, but it was about the Roosevelt brothers, The Roosevelt brothers who preceded Ruth Harkness. So it was their first expedition to find a panda. They killed the panda.
But it was really interesting to read about, kind of like the legacy of that experience and how it impacted the Roosevelt family's perception of hunting and conservation.
Set as kind of an adventure narrative in Sichuan. But I think that was a really good one to read to. Compliments the lady and the Panda, if you're an interest for more fair books.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Definitely.
[00:26:35] Speaker C: I love that book, and I think it would be a great film. I'd love to see a movie made about that story anyway.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: And you're. Anyone listening, I think Gloria can probably adapt it.
There you go.
Well, Roosevelt. Well, they are like. They're obviously renowned adventurers as well.
Have you read the river of Doubt? It's the one about when Roosevelt goes down the river of Doubt in South America.
Yeah, that one's quite a read. I'd recommend that.
[00:27:02] Speaker C: Okay. Add it to the list.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah. But one thing you talk about as well, panda diplomacy, I find really fascinating, and I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about that.
[00:27:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's one of my favorite Things I think to write about too, just because I'm generally most drawn to stories that are kind of at that intersection of environment and geopolitics. And I think panda diplomacy really hits that sweet spot where you can kind of talk about like inter country relations alongside conservation essentially.
Pandas kind of became this phenom in the 1930s into the 1940s.
China eventually banned the export of all pandas. They're the only country that has pandas, so they can easily have a monopoly on panda production.
And then around the 1960s with Richard Nixon, we began to see this trend emerge of pandas kind of being given as gifts to establish guanxi, which was kind of like goodwill friendship envoy culture.
And then eventually that's kind of gone through several iterations, you know, from kind of this, yeah, pretty purely goodwill token of appreciation of nation building, of friendship building into much more of a diplomatic tool, I would say. So China will often give out pandas to countries that they're having good relations with that they're striking trade deals with.
And if countries fall out of favor with China, they might demand that those countries, zoos return their pandas back to China.
And so, yeah, there was kind of a time, I think in the last five years where people thought maybe it's the end of panda diplomacy.
China, you know, post Covid, there was a lot of fraction relations there. China was demanding a lot of bears be returned to China.
But in the past few years we've seen more and more pandas getting sent out again. So it seems like it's very well alive and good.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: Yeah, well, thank you for that.
And obviously people can read more about it in the chapter on pandas there, where you also talk about meeting papa panda, which I just wanted to ask what that was like.
[00:29:11] Speaker C: I never actually met him, I interviewed him. So I will say when I was in China, I mean, a lot of it was, was just simply as a tourist looking at like the panda infrastructure, so to speak.
Very difficult to speak with the Chinese on this topic. So it took me close to a year to go through several friends and friends of friends and people who knew people until I got the opportunity to meet with or to speak with the scientist who was in, in charge of kind of China's breeding programs of pandas over many decades.
Yeah, I mean, he had a very good sense of humor. He had a really interesting historical, you know, account of what has happened in.
I think only a few journalists have ever spoken with him. So that was kind of a special achievement in that sense. And I think it really brought this narrative together as well.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that was probably my favorite chapter of the book.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: It was my favorite to write and I think this is the thing too. You can have a favorite bear.
I had the most fun with the panda chapter and I think that comes across also because it was perhaps the least depressing in some ways too. Right. Like, yeah, it was a really enjoyable chapter to write. I had a great time in Sichuan. I think China kind of subvert a lot of the expectations that I had growing up in the west and being exposed to certain narratives about China, like going there and seeing this really fascinating country with a really rich.
With a wealth of wilderness that, you know, was any.
Unlike anything that I had seen before.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I suppose on the flip side, it's obviously not a criticism, particularly because I think you've already told me that there were extenuating circumstances, but obviously there wasn't enough on Sun Bears, which. Speaking of favorite bears.
[00:30:55] Speaker C: Yes, yes. I mean, so we had talked about the fact that I was hoping to go to Borneo during 2020 and obviously the world shut down. So kind of my exposure to Sun Bears was through what I'd seen in the rescue center in Vietnam and so kind of having to incorporate. I mean there are also subject to bio farming as well.
Yeah, Sun Bears. I really wish I could have done a little bit more on this. Was like 7. 7.5 in the end. But.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I guess it's an excuse to do like an updated version in a. In a couple of years time.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: At least. At least a few features. At least now, especially now that I'm in Southeast Asia, I'm like, okay, I have to get out to some sunfare places.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I've got a few places you could go. So I'm happy to sort of put you in touch with anywhere and obviously that'd be great. Keep it in mind.
Yeah, definitely.
So, yeah.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: What.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: So what is it about bears you think that keeps. Keeps us interested?
[00:31:52] Speaker C: I think there's a lot.
I think so much of it is the bears kind of curiosity and intelligence and likeness to ourselves. I find it endlessly amazing how many places and cultures have stories of bears being human.
I mean, I was just at the Museum of the north in Fairbanks, Alaska, and there's all this poetry. I mean, I'm familiar with the fact that people think of polar bears as shapeshifters as well and Nook and just all this art and writing about polar bears being like man and moving between forms and you know, we find this in so many cultures. No Matter which bear species it is, no matter which part of the world. This is belief that like humans and bears are very closely related.
I think part of that, I don't know if you remember, like the bears footprint looks a lot like a human footprint.
Bears can walk on their hind legs. There's something about them that I think we see ourselves in, which kind of makes us. And the curiosity too, right? Like, bears are playful, they're curious. That's why we see videos of them go viral all the time, right. You know, you see bear cubs playing in a pool or playing on a hammock and like people love. Can't get enough of those videos.
At the same time, I think humans are fascinated by anything that has the propensity or potential to kill us.
And I think bears kind of perfectly encapsulate this dichotomy between like, they're so cute and they're also so scary. And that for me, I think is part of like what I've always been drawn to with bears is like that dual nature of these animals, which you can go one avenue with the stories that you tell about them or you can go the other avenue.
And you never really know what to expect when you encounter a bear. Right. On the one hand, they're the most terrifying thing that you can imagine in the woods. And on the other hand, if they don't attack you, it's a really special, magical, cute moment. So I think like, there's not many other animals, crocodiles, sharks, you know, things that we feel the same way about. Like we do with bears.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, yeah, I very well said. Like, although I think crocodiles, I think I draw the line there.
I'm not a fan. I don't want to get anywhere near a crocodile.
[00:34:05] Speaker C: Not a fan at all.
And I think too, this was also something that I will say I really appreciated in reporting the book, which was that my understanding and definition of bare human relationships was a little bit narrow because it was generally tied to the North American species which are more likely to kill someone. But we don't see that with pandas, with spectacled bears, with sun bears. Right. Like there can be attacks on humans, but it's a completely different ball game compared to those other species.
Again, sloth bears as we've seen in Japan, Asiatic black bears apparently too. Like, yes, they can be very aggressive, but there are some bear species that don't fit that same characterization.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I found in my conversations with different bear people, you just find out that you can't put bears in a Neat little box. You can't say that it's one thing. And each bear is. You know, when you talk about what a bear is, not just a bear. Right. It's. It's many different things to many different people there, like you say.
Yeah.
So this, I appreciate you might not be able to answer this question, but like, has. Has. Did your sort of. I did allude earlier saying, like, you mentioned polar bears being kind of one of your favorite species. Did that change at all over the writing of the book? Like one species kind of drew you in more or you kind of. I mean, they're all great, obviously, so
[00:35:24] Speaker C: I'm so sick of them all now.
I think, like, I think a lot more about spectacle bears than I did before, and I think that they're like becoming more popular as well. I get so many. I mean, maybe it's my algorithm now is like always giving me spectacled bear things, but I think, you know, Paddington has made them more popular. I think, like, there's been a lot of research that's been done and funded partially through National Geographic on spectacled bears in recent years.
I was so enamored with the cloud forest that I think that I often like, oh, how can I get back to that ecosystem to report to work?
So. Yeah, but I think, no, I think people actually do ask me quite a bit if I'm tired of bears. And my response to that is that I have at least six more bear stories that I'm writing right now. So apparently the answer is no.
I think too, when you're a journalist, you kind of should choose your specialty carefully because if you write a book about something that's probably going to lead to more work on that topic.
So if you choose something that you don't actually like that much, you might spend the next five to 10 years being a bit sick of it and a bit bored.
And fortunately with bears, like, I'm. I think maybe there was like a six month period where I was like, okay, I'm gonna write some different things now.
But I'm fairly happily back on the, on the bear wagon at this point.
And yeah, I think also being in Asia is an interesting. I'm just looking, I'm like, oh, I have my little, my little Taiwanese black bear right here. Very nice.
It's always interesting to see, like, the different cultural interactions. I mean, Taiwan is a place that we haven't talked about. Didn't go there for the book. But like in Taiwan, the black Asiatic black bear, the moon bear, is kind of like what the panda is to mainland China. Right. Like, it's a whole culture that's very much.
Bears are everywhere in their iconography. So that was quite fun to travel there and see. Like, oh, everything everywhere I go is. Is bears.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not sick of it yet. And I would like to do more bear things.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: Oh, great.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Is that the. The Famasan bear? Is that what they call it there in Taiwan?
[00:37:21] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Well, yeah, of course.
Yeah. And obviously in Malaysia right now, sun bears are like the mascot of the tourists tourist board or whatever at the minute.
Yeah.
[00:37:33] Speaker C: Yes, I noticed that too. Like, sometimes whenever I get to an airport, I'm always like, do they have bears in the airport? And like, yes, in Kuala Lumpur they did. Yeah.
[00:37:40] Speaker A: Don't worry. If I don't see a bear, some. A bear thing somewhere, someone will point it out to me generally whenever I'm out and about. So, yeah, can't miss them. That's great.
This is. Oh, this is a question from Madison, actually. My friend enjoyed your book as well. She was kind of like, what is something you wish that all people knew about bears?
[00:37:59] Speaker C: Hmm. I think something that I appreciated learning a lot and I think more people should know is how intelligent bears are. And that's kind of the response I always give.
But when I began reporting that section of the book, it was kind of a. I mean, I'd seen these bears in Vietnam, and I was kind of like, I hope they're not that smart, because being that aware of your existence would be pretty bad.
And then perhaps in kind of a sad way, the more that I spoke with scientists who were looking at reassigned cognition, it was like, oh, actually, they are extremely smart.
They are better than great apes at many tasks.
They've passed a lot of tests that researchers have given to them. But like, other species, big cats, apes can't pass.
So, yeah, I think just a deeper appreciation for, like, the inner lives perhaps of bears would be beneficial for people to know.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, they're all.
I feel like I say it all the time. It's like they're all individuals with their own sort of needs and wants in their room.
Their life is important, like, if not to anyone else, but to them. So, yeah.
And so after. So after writing the book, so what do you think? What's your kind of outlook on the future of bears? Like.
Like some species are obviously in a better position than others, putting it lightly. But, like, you know, like, what are you. What are your thoughts there at the
[00:39:25] Speaker C: end of the book? I kind of talked about, like, the three species that I thought would persist that were doing well or like had enough investment in them to kind of continue on.
And I think that's kind of the panda. I mean, not that many, but China will not let the panda go extinct, the American black bear and the brown bear, because they're so prolific globally.
And then for the other five species, I was, I guess, more reserved, more worried. I'd say that that's probably worsened in the last few years just given that we've seen the world kind of seemingly give up and pull back from conservation, especially climate action. So for those species that are threatened by climate change, I mean, we've kind of moved. It's almost completely off the radar at this point, given other crises going on.
I think for so many animals and not just bears, like, we're kind of within a pretty narrow window of action on a lot of issues.
And, you know, habitat loss, plastics pollution, poaching, trafficking, climate change.
There's so many species that are kind of down below that 10,000 mark, 10,000 individuals.
And yeah, unfortunately, I don't think that we've seen the world coming together. We've been, you know, divided by wars, by politics, distracted by a lot of things. So, yeah, at this point I think it still relies on those like, few people who are kind of the champions of each species and obviously each country, you know, they have their own politics going on at home and maybe there's some efforts that can be made there with habitat protection on the ground. But again, like, if we kind of lose.
Lose sight of the climate element, then a lot of these species face a pretty, A pretty difficult future.
[00:41:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I suppose, yeah. Time will tell, but I mean, hopefully after this some people will go out and get the. Get your book, appreciate the bears a bit more.
[00:41:20] Speaker C: But vote for your elected officials who are pro bear conservation.
[00:41:25] Speaker B: Indeed.
[00:41:26] Speaker A: So what is it you're working on now?
Actually, sorry, wait, I've just thought of something. There was one I meant to ask before we get there, were there any juicy things that you had to leave out of the book? Any sort of juicy bits you could tell us?
[00:41:43] Speaker C: That's a good question.
The answer would be yes, but now it's been a long time and it's hard to remember them.
I mean, I think one of the hardest parts was there were a lot of scientists and people that I met with and interviewed or even traveled with that didn't make it into the book. Just because if we didn't see a bear, if something didn't happen or it was repetitious of something else. Then it was like the editor was going to cut it. So that happened a few times and I still feel always very sad about that.
I had a great time near Quito looking for bears in the Paramo in that area, which did not ultimately make it into the book.
I had some stories about tracking different bears early in my career that was cut.
But a lot of those stories too have made it into the world in a different format, which is nice. You can kind of publish things separately as like an essay or like snippets and excerpts. So by and large, I've kind of made up, I think, for most of the things that I didn't get to. Or cut.
Yeah. With the exception of maybe the sun bears so far.
Don't worry, I'll be the best to that end too. Like, I have a. I'd wanted to go to Romania as well to report on what's happening with brown bears and that also impacted by Covid.
So something I'm working on right now is a feature about brown bears in Romania that's coming out this fall.
Working on a feature about black bears in Japan right now. Come out again later this summer. So, yeah, there's other things that are still happening in the bear world in my life.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Good. And have you. Have you actually been out to Japan to do any research there for that?
[00:43:18] Speaker C: Not yet. The plan is to try to get there in the next few months.
Yeah. Things take a while to come together. I think we talked about that before.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: I think we did, yeah. Off mic. But it'll be interesting to see what you find because I know that the way it's kind of being reported is interesting because I find like, it feels like it's being reported as this new phenomenon that's just happened, but it's something that is stretching back to 20 years and it's just obviously it's becoming more of a.
[00:43:42] Speaker C: It's been building.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, yeah, that'll be interesting to see what you. You come out with. I'll be looking out for it. Thinking of Japan, I was. I was watching. Have you ever seen the film Seven Samurai?
[00:43:53] Speaker C: I've not.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: Oh, well, great. Should watch it. I mean, it was re. It's been remade loads. Like, you know, it was remade into like the Magnificent Seven as a western and it's been readapted several times, I think. But there's a quote. Of course, it all comes back to bears. I'm sit. I'm sitting there in the.
So a Bug's life is very Much the same similar plot where, you know, they have to go out to find.
They have to. Basically there's a village and they go out to find some samurai to help defend them from some marauders. And the villagers start talking and they go, oh, how will we find them? We don't have any money, we can't pay them. And one of them goes, find a hungry samurai. Even bears come down from the mountains when they are hungry. And I thought I was like, even back then they sort of knew
[00:44:36] Speaker C: I knew it was gonna. What was coming.
Yeah, I mean it's been interesting. Like, I mean there's still been so many bear incidences already this year too. Once again, like selling like bear insurance. Now you can have like bear shelters at your home, like emergency things that you climb into if a bear comes.
So yeah, I think like, I mean I, I'm, I think very attuned to like what's happening with bears because I have like a alert set up for anytime a bear gets mentioned in the media.
But it is interesting to see these trends and see what's happening around the world with Ferris. I don't think they're not going away.
[00:45:11] Speaker A: No.
[00:45:12] Speaker C: Lots more stories to tell.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And any interesting things you've alluded to recently, just out of curiosity?
[00:45:20] Speaker C: Well, I saw that four people were rescued by helicopter after approaching a bear on a trail in Japan recently.
So that was something that I thought was quite interesting.
[00:45:28] Speaker A: Why were they doing that? Why were they.
[00:45:31] Speaker C: Okay, I think they were just a. They saw the bear while they were hiking and they were. I mean everyone in Japan seems to be like extremely terrified of bears now after what's happened. So people are having really strong reactions to anytime they see a bear.
But yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens this fall and if it's a repeat of last year. So what else have I seen with bears lately? Those are the main ones. I think I've been following the Japan bear stuff.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
And yeah, I suppose if people want to find out more or see some of your articles or where's the best place to purchase your book from?
You got anything would you like to plug?
[00:46:10] Speaker C: They can go to my website, which is gloriadickey.com you can follow me on Instagram.
Gloria Dickey as well. All of the links to my book, the other bear media coverage are all in there.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: Cool. I'll put that in the show notes as well.
Oh, that's brilliant. I mean, anything else you care to mention?
[00:46:29] Speaker C: What have I not talked about?
It's like one thing that we've seen is like a big backlash against bear conservation in the United States, especially, like what's happening in Alaska and kind of this, like predator control programs, bears that are being shot from helicopters to control their numbers. I think there's been like a big backslide in the past.
I mean, it's been going on probably for five or six years now. But that's something a lot of people are talking about is what's been happening with the government.
I mean, it's not just bears, it's wolves as well.
But that's what got a lot of people upset.
Yeah, that'd be one issue to raise attention to that perhaps people can make a difference with voting.
Yeah, that's probably the main one.
Diplomacy is kind of ticking along.
[00:47:21] Speaker B: Are there any.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: I was gonna say if you're able to share any links to articles about that as well, I can include that in the show notes.
[00:47:29] Speaker C: Sure, I can pass that along.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: Thank you.
I'd be interested to see that.
Oh, thanks very much, Gloria. I think that's been. I've really enjoyed our chat.
I really appreciate your time. I'm thrilled that you came on.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: Thanks once again to Gloria for taking the time to chat with us.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: I would recommend her book, eight Bears
[00:47:47] Speaker B: to anyone who has even a passing interest in learning more about bears.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: You won't regret it.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: And it's worth keeping in mind that
[00:47:54] Speaker A: we have to champion these species and their habitats if we want to keep them around.
So go bears.
So I think that's all we've got time for for now. So, as ever, thanks for listening. I'm Philip Stubley and this is the Bear Den signing off. See you later.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: The Bear Den the American Bear Association Podcast was written and presented by me, Philip Stubley. The music was composed by React Music.
Thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible, including Karen Housman, Bill Lee, Clarie Lee, Stephanie Horner, Donna Brzinka, Ross Coyer and Angie Page.
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